Spirit And Matter

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Re: Spirit And Matter

Post  Sputnik on Fri 22 Oct 2010, 15:54

Irony - I've read some of your other posts on this site and you speak of dreams fairly often. Maybe you have some insight regarding a strange thought I had recently...what if death is merely a separation between this experience and its exact converse? In other words, what constitutes my subconscious experience in this life is my conscious reality in the next and when I dream in the next life it constitutes my experience of consciousness in this one. Maybe all of my conscious experiences in this life will be my nighmares and euphorias in the next. (Makes me want to toe the line in all of my actions and intentions here.)

Consider being dead as being absent from this plane of existence. Water knows different aggregate states of being, so does your spirit. So does your subconscious mind, only that it is not really *yours*. It's an independent (animal) spirit which shares shelter with you in the physical body here on earth. The Shaman calls it your *small brother* family. You have your fate and your brother his own. What makes a big difference to your dreaming skills is to befriend your brother spirit. Some say I am nuts.... yeah and recently some famous scientist brainsurgeons were able to proove that there are two separate streams of consciousness operating the brain.
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Re: Spirit And Matter

Post  KapitanScarlet on Sun 24 Oct 2010, 11:59

On Emerson, I have only read the Oversoul and Self Reliance and i thought these were incredibly inspirational and written by a mind of immense layers of understanding, but thats not to say that i am then saying Emerson is the answer to all problems as some people "not" on this forum may presume whenever someone puts forth a writer that they recognised gold in . So i clarify my own interpretation for future ghosts.
Its always a question of specific timing for me with reading, i came upon Emersons Oversoul and Self Reliance under my own steam so to speak, or at least under my own conscious steam , just like somebody taking a walk in the woods and then happening across a most beautiful discovery.
At the moment of reading, it was for sure that my state of contemplating aligned with "some" of the many points that he so beautifully constructs and encapsulates within these 2 essays, and at that moment , he was not dead for me, he was alive and affecting me like so few humans could do.
That is the power of great art wherever a person may find it, and then the after-effect of such an encounter leaves one charged up with re-newed inspiration about areas of thought and contemplations that not many seem to care about, but the truth being , is that few have been given the opportunity to care about, because these type of writings are not widely publicised , they have to be sought out by the inquiring self on the alone journey of the mystery of ones soul .

In regards to my critical essay of Emerson's "Intellect", upon further review I have determined that I was full of shit when I wrote that. (Mostly). Emerson is a towering weild of inspiration and intellect, whereas I am but a half-sprouted sapling of hapless ideas and vain declarations.

I took an initial glance over it and it seems it would have taken a lot of applied thought to write it and i think i would need about 4 hours to read emersons intellect and then read your critique and form my feedback if im capable , so i hope you dont mind that i copied it for the moment in case you delete , because i will take the effort when i get the window (: not to say that my opinion will be any true gauge of its value or point of view , but you did ask (:so i will try to accomodate with my amateur simplespeak

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Re: Spirit And Matter

Post  Sputnik on Sun 24 Oct 2010, 17:01

Hi Bobdog,

One night when you finally snap out of it you crash eveything that you thought was real, you will see that what you do during the day is sleepwalking and what you do at night is weaving. Unite day and night and the pheonix will rise. What I am saying is this: treat the day as if it were a dream...and see that everything is dreaming, then you wake up at night and see how you weave the flying carpet. It's much more fulfilling to navigate through life in this way.





Writing a dream diary for a year is a good idea. Keeping it for another year and then reading it is great fun. Smile
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Re: Spirit And Matter

Post  Sputnik on Wed 27 Oct 2010, 01:47

Don't worry about Emerson, he was the one who said: A friend is one before whom I may think aloud. One of my favorite qoutes.
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Re: Spirit And Matter

Post  KapitanScarlet on Sat 30 Oct 2010, 02:34

A true friendship is held together by faith which is first presented through the whispers of intuition then reveals its fruits in the experience , which in turn empowers faith and intuition and the circle is complete giving life meaning
But a distasteful broken friendship reveals that one of the parties has been compromised by devious influences

Bobdog - I think youve elaborated and reflected on your emerson critique in an impressive manner in the realms "the study of the self"
Im still looking forward to reading it soon , just too knackered at the moment to tackle both of them then comment but i will get there maybe after next week .


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Re: Spirit And Matter

Post  Sputnik on Sun 31 Oct 2010, 13:01

Great song Bob Very Happy


A true friendship is held together by faith which is first presented through the whispers of intuition then reveals its fruits in the experience , which in turn empowers faith and intuition and the circle is complete giving life meaning
But a distasteful broken friendship reveals that one of the parties has been compromised by devious influences

Faith is trust, and if your trust is being used against you, when somebody who you considered to be your friend lies to you
about others to instigate against you, all the faith in the world won't help you to forget and forgive.

Even if it only concerns a friendship that developed via the internet technology.

Friendship lives in the heart as well you know, just as conscience does.

If your heart is messed up.....how could anyone ever develop faith in you.

I may not matter to you, but I represent this lost principle to you.
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Re: Spirit And Matter

Post  KapitanScarlet on Sun 31 Oct 2010, 22:28

Faith is trust, and if your trust is being used against you, when somebody who you considered to be your friend lies to you about others to instigate against you, all the faith in the world won't help you to forget and forgive.

Trust is just one element of faith, as is hope, there are different levels of faith , one most common type of faith is just undercover ego-enforcement , another type of rarer faith may be a request from intuition to observe a future act of magical transformation that is "cultivated in time through dramatic change" thus a certain faith is maintained by the observer even although occurences in present time by the subject of the magic act may absolutely oppose any form of actualization , but eventually , in time, a dramatic change to the subject may occur, and the observer reflects back to the moment they intuited its arrival .
If they had held onto the faith that it was always going to come about , and it does, then that is a true faith cultivated by the mystery of intuition , if they had lost faith then their intuitive connection is still being compromised by doubts , these doubts often at the hands of the ego or even ignorance
But there are many impostors into the operation of faith, especially if the intuition threatens the established order of the ego


Even if it only concerns a friendship that developed via the internet technology.
Friendship lives in the heart as well you know, just as conscience does.
If your heart is messed up.....how could anyone ever develop faith in you.
I may not matter to you, but I represent this lost principle to you.

An example of "heart messed up " ?
And can u elaborate on "but i trepresnt this lost principle to you " ?

only if u feel like it off course
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Re: Spirit And Matter

Post  Sputnik on Tue 02 Nov 2010, 13:03

There cannot be friendship without trust. I think you would agree with me on that.

Or do you have friends you know you can't trust but have somehow faith in? I doubt that.
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Re: Spirit And Matter

Post  KapitanScarlet on Tue 02 Nov 2010, 23:19

There cannot be friendship without trust. I think you would agree with me on that.
Or do you have friends you know you can't trust but have somehow faith in? I doubt that.

Well in my world there could be, if the faith was strong and true, because sometimes some people can go off the rails a bit due to x circumstances, and that may lead a friend to betray a friend, but the betrayed friend may have faith through intuition that the betrayer was acting under abnormal extremes or even an inflamed ego etc, and if the betrayer was a genuine developing soul, then they may realise the dishonourable actions they had taken and make amends , so a trust had been broken, but because of a faith, the trust was then repairable
But there would be limits, because certain betrayals might be beyond forgiveness from one friend to another in the realms of regaining an intimate connection , everyone has either constantly re-defining limits, or steadfast limits

In modern times, what i witness with people is they have little faith or patience, once a trust is broken, thats it, end of connection . But actually its worse than that, the trust isnt even established, you have people that expect , and if their expectations are not met, they just dump on that person and move onto another

I see this problem directly relating to intuition , because true friendship is completly bonded by intuition
But because people are out of touch with their selfs, their true intiuition, and obsessed with their social reputation , they become much more suspicious and constantly are worrying about their so called friendships

A true friendship happens instantly or slowly in time, but the friendship is felt before you ever realise it in words
I think the skill is in realising the depth and limitations of any friendship, because time and exposure rate really does constantly alter the parameters , from warm to ice to warm again , its just a case of following the signals regarding the current state of the weather and acting accordingly in the friendship

People get stuck in habitual patterns if relating , the idea that friend is a friend will always be a friend , is crazy , a so called friend could be your worst enemy , in subtle ways that may stop you developing as a person

BUt thats not to say that a friend could and can be a lifelong benevolent influence , anything is always possible for those that seek it

And in fact there are 2 types of people regarding friendships, one type monitors the friend and allows the friend freedom to act as they genuinely want to at all times, even if that means breaking off the friendship
The other type has a secret credit account where they believe the friend owes them just for being a friend , and one day they call in their debt through emotional blackmail




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Re: Spirit And Matter

Post  Sputnik on Wed 03 Nov 2010, 12:47

I would forgive somebody if they turn out to be mentally sick if such a person would show remorse.

Some asshole that just acts as if she'd done nothing wrong makes me puke.

Just tell me one thing Kapis and Flames,

what would you do if you would catch one of your "women" or "male" friends intrigue against you,

telling you lies about somebody else to manipulate you?

How would you feel about that and what would be the consequences for you?

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Re: Spirit And Matter

Post  KapitanScarlet on Wed 03 Nov 2010, 22:04

Good points about the competition and tribe FLames , its almost as if whats happened today is that people have been harnessed into a collective of non-individuals , lacking both security and soul confidence , and beating each other up in the hope of achieving such

what would you do if you would catch one of your "women" or "male" friends intrigue against you,
telling you lies about somebody else to manipulate you?
How would you feel about that and what would be the consequences for you?
As always, it would depend on the particular circumstances of the particular situation
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Re: Spirit And Matter

Post  Sputnik on Thu 04 Nov 2010, 01:17

Yes, ethical ideologies can get quite personal. I always thought they should. Wink
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Re: Spirit And Matter

Post  KapitanScarlet on Sat 06 Nov 2010, 11:57

The thing with ethical ideologies , is that they are permitted to exert influence on the present moment , and any influence on the present moment has to be considered very carefully as it can be life changing in a positive or negative manner

So although i for example may have my own operative ethical ideology , at any specific moment, i have to retain the capability to realise that its software requires an update, otherwise i may restrict the unexpected knock of destiny on my door , because that is sometimes not so predictable and allied to any ideology, and such oppurtunity can be denied by the over-restrictive confines of any active ideology

So the ethical ideology is always a guide, never a rule
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Re: Spirit And Matter

Post  Sputnik on Sat 06 Nov 2010, 12:50

Sure , but imagine how bad it would be if you would not follow your own ethical rules (or guidance)...
to be the measure on how far you let other people influence you.
We all draw the line and on that line we also fix the point of no return, the point at which we say "adios"
I am always very conscious about this, that's why I don't play Poker with my friends.
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Re: Spirit And Matter

Post  KapitanScarlet on Sat 27 Nov 2010, 13:30

[quote="Bobdog"]
Kapis - Having read your posts above, this might be an excellent forum for me to put forth an old essay I wrote some years ago on Ralph Waldo Emerson. He is one of my favorite authors and an important source of my own inspiration. Having said that, ironically, my essay is very critical and the voice that speaks through my writing is very arrogant. (I was much younger and on the cusp of intellectual escape from a childhood of fanatical Christianity.) Maybe someday I'll rewrite it, but I would gratefully welcome any and all remarks, scathing or otherwise, from any who care to comment. I am aware of its many faults but I still think it would serve some purpose herein, albeit won't make me any friends.

(Sentences contained by "quotes" are Emerson's.)


Bobdog, I just read Emersons Intellect, and my feeling is similar to when i read the 2 emerson pieces above, that this is writing of the highest excellence of quality.
Emerson doesnt shine a torch, emerson holds a floodlight upon the hidden workings of the imagination and attempts to illustrate its mechanics , which without that light, are disguised in the transcendental .
I am truly inspired or should i say my soul is moved reading this mans work.
Literally every sentence or at least paragraph, demands reflection as these arrangements of words in themselfs attempt to release themselfs from what emerson brilliantly attempts to form and encapsulate them for , to momentarilly illuminate the mechanics of transcendental consciousness , they default to the transcendental even as they are encapsulated with the intention to illuminate this transcendental

So even as emerson uses clarity of language to floodlight the hidden side of the imagination and its roots, that very choice of language he uses , itself , is innately attempting to re-propogate itself back into the transcendental , but when i read emerson, i feel he articulates portions of my own understanding of being in a most crafted manner.
If the Emerson spirit hovers in the ether, i send it my most grateful salutations again and again for such efforts and endeavours , i put him in the genius bracket in my own appreciations of quality .

I am really afraid to quote any of that piece, as every part is wonderful, but i have forced myself to cherry pick this area that caught my attention on first reade although if i read again i know other parts will catch me.


God offers to every mind its choice between truth and repose. Take which you please, -- you can never have both. Between these, as a pendulum, man oscillates. He in whom the love of repose predominates will accept the first creed, the first philosophy, the first political party he meets, -- most likely his father's. He gets rest, commodity, and reputation; but he shuts the door of truth. He in whom the love of truth predominates will keep himself aloof from all moorings, and afloat. He will abstain from dogmatism, and recognize all the opposite negations, between which, as walls, his being is swung. He submits to the inconvenience of suspense and imperfect opinion, but he is a candidate for truth, as the other is not, and respects the highest law of his being.

The circle of the green earth he must measure with his shoes, to find the man who can yield him truth. He shall then know that there is somewhat more blessed and great in hearing than in speaking. Happy is the hearing man; unhappy the speaking man. As long as I hear truth, I am bathed by a beautiful element, and am not conscious of any limits to my nature. The suggestions are thousandfold that I hear and see. The waters of the great deep have ingress and egress to the soul. But if I speak, I define, I confine, and am less. When Socrates speaks, Lysis and Menexenus are afflicted by no shame that they do not speak. They also are good. He likewise defers to them, loves them, whilst he speaks. Because a true and natural man contains and is the same truth which an eloquent man articulates: but in the eloquent man, because he can articulate it, it seems something the less to reside, and he turns to these silent beautiful with the more inclination and respect. The ancient sentence said, Let us be silent, for so are the gods. Silence is a solvent that destroys personality, and gives us leave to be great and universal. Every man's progress is through a succession of teachers, each of whom seems at the time to have a superlative influence, but it at last gives place to a new. Frankly let him accept it all. Jesus says, Leave father, mother, house and lands, and follow me. Who leaves all, receives more. This is as true intellectually as morally. Each new mind we approach seems to require an abdication of all our past and present possessions. A new doctrine seems, at first, a subversion of all our opinions, tastes, and manner of living. Such has Swedenborg, such has Kant, such has Coleridge, such has Hegel or his interpreter Cousin, seemed to many young men in this country. Take thankfully and heartily all they can give. Exhaust them, wrestle with them, let them not go until their blessing be won, and, after a short season, the dismay will be overpast, the excess of influence withdrawn, and they will be no longer an alarming meteor, but one more bright star shining serenely in your heaven, and blending its light with all your day.

Now i will make some comments on your own critique


The Decomposition of Emerson’s “Intellect”
(A critical examination of Ralph Waldo Emerson's “Intellect”)

Submitted by Bobdog



“As a ship aground is battered by the waves, so man imprisoned in mortal life, lies open to the mercy of coming events.”
Emerson insightfully describes the tragedy of the human condition and in so-doing, reveals the need to overcome it.
JUst before that emerson quote, is the root of the quote which to me is not an absolute condition ...so i did not interpret that as "the tragedy" just an aspect, a degree ..which is a tragic part of the human condition
Every man beholds his human condition with a degree of melancholy


But even as he captures this truth, he sets it free again in the next sentence.
“But a truth, separated by the intellect, is no longer a subject of destiny. We behold it as a god upraised above care and fear. And so any fact in our life, or any record of our fancies or reflections, disentangled from the web of our unconsciousness, becomes an object impersonal and immortal. It is the past restored, but embalmed.”
emerson contimues from that into ............
A better art than that of Egypt has taken fear and corruption out of it. It is eviscerated of care. It is offered for science. What is addressed to us for contemplation does not threaten us, but makes us intellectual beings.

The growth of the intellect is spontaneous in every expansion. The mind that grows could not predict the times, the means, the mode of that spontaneity. God enters by a private door into every individual. Long prior to the age of reflection is the thinking of the mind. Out of darkness, it came insensibly into the marvellous light of to-day. In the period of infancy it accepted and disposed of all impressions from the surrounding creation after its own way. Whatever any mind doth or saith is after a law; and this native law remains over it after it has come to reflection or conscious thought. In the most worn, pedantic, introverted self-tormenter's life, the greatest part is incalculable by him, unforeseen, unimaginable, and must be, until he can take himself up by his own ears. What am I? What has my will done to make me that I am? Nothing. I have been floated into this thought, this hour, this connection of events, by secret currents of might and mind, and my ingenuity and wilfulness have not thwarted, have not aided to an appreciable degree.

Our spontaneous action is always the best. You cannot, with your best deliberation and heed, come so close to any question as your spontaneous glance shall bring you, whilst you rise from your bed, or walk abroad in the morning after meditating the matter before sleep on the previous night. Our thinking is a pious reception. Our truth of thought is therefore vitiated as much by too violent direction given by our will, as by too great negligence. We do not determine what we will think. We only open our senses, clear away, as we can, all obstruction from the fact, and suffer the intellect to see. We have little control over our thoughts. We are the prisoners of ideas. They catch us up for moments into their heaven, and so fully engage us, that we take no thought for the morrow, gaze like children, without an effort to make them our own. By and by we fall out of that rapture, bethink us where we have been, what we have seen, and repeat, as truly as we can, what we have beheld. As far as we can recall these ecstasies, we carry away in the ineffaceable memory the result, and all men and all the ages confirm it. It is called Truth. But the moment we cease to report, and attempt to correct and contrive, it is not truth.

My interpretation of that piece is that emerson was highlighting that truth exists in all experiences , and can be "reported" by the intellect through writing or the artist through other means , but something in the intellect ceases to report the actual experiential truth and "attempts to correct and contrive" and then it is not truth, and i would say that culprit is the undisciplined EGOs signature

The human intellect is able to sift the silt of its experience to discover the treasures buried there-in. Each precious deposit is weighed and measured to its precise value and utility. Facts do we find to remain without our persons and are terribly cold, impersonal things, but truths cannot cease to take purchase upon our souls, both invigorating and exhausting us from the inside, out.
Such is the constitution of truth that it maintains its integrity when tested within the fires of the human spirit.
In moralogically identifying a “truth”, it now develops to our growing awareness, a building block with which to lay a foundation, whereupon still greater truths may be erected.
This phenomenon becomes a means of destiny if ever there was one; it requires worship no more than does its distant cousin, the cold, hard fact. The mere observance of truth is sufficient to form an adequate relationship with it, and its integrity is then added to our own.
A person’s constitution is both made and measured by his integrity and his willingness to embrace the truths that establish and expand that integrity. These truths are no more “gods” than are those of us who hold to them. Even so, do they lend an aspect to conceptions of immortality, but may we not mistake them for things impersonal.
This is to say nothing of fancies or reflections, which have no business in such a discourse. Fancies are neither facts nor truths, but feelings. We may choose to feel any way at all and while these feelings may indeed be very real, they are not necessarily “true.” Even those that are true succeed only in adding depth to the experience that sparked the feelings in the first place, for all feelings find their source in experience of some sort, particularly those of reflection.
I relate to some of your observations above bobdog
Ultimately, it is the truths regarding the experiences that have relevance and value to our destinies, for they are irrevocable. We can no more change such truths than we can go back and change the experiences that revealed them, but we can grow into better understandings regarding the effects our feelings have on future experiences.
Do u have an example of an irrevocable truth ?
This is the inherent difference between real truth and real feeling. Truth, observed and applied, can help us to change our experiences, which in turn helps us to change our feelings, but feelings, real or not, cannot change truth.
Personally i interpret truth as a variable but i appreciate that certain truth variables can in certain stages of time, give the impression of being invariable
When applying truth to change or recreate an experience, the past is not restored nor repeated, but fulfilled in the wondrous splendor of life’s enchantment.
I would require an example here (:
Misappropriation of feelings, applied and replayed, may serve only to carve deep chasms of fear and unreason upon our hearts and minds, where we are left to wander in self-revolving ignorance, blinding us all the more from recognizing the truths that must be so urgently apprehended in order to set us free.
Often times, truth that cannot be realized is substituted by misdirected inspiration. It is a penalty we pay for trying to purchase things of a spiritual nature on poor credit, using our souls for collateral.
Every man strives to collect his due before he’s earned it. We think that simply because we have first suffered pain, we are now entitled to inspiration. This is an unfounded assumption.
Inspiration has been so long directly associated with things of a “spiritual nature” that its presence in ideology is never questioned. This is the tragically repeating folly of humanity since its origins.
I concur completly with your perception above
When we speak of theological doctrine, we do not cease to become embroiled in fear and hope, love and hate, forgiveness and resentment, salvation and damnation. But if we are to find the subtle path of truth and stay its course, we cannot be persuaded by emotions, thoughts or actions that lend themselves to irrationality, that contradict the very means of intellect by which we discovered truth in the first place.
I see irrationality as sometimes slotting into the "mysticism" bracket, yet to be made rational , but still could serve a positive persuasion to a positive experience of self truth

Thats all i could fit in at this moment bobdog, but who am i to contradict your truth of the past , but these are my current opinions
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Re: Spirit And Matter

Post  seraphim on Mon 29 Nov 2010, 06:49

Do u have an example of an irrevocable truth ?
I know this wasn't directed at me, but I might have one.........
What is the one thing that a person can depend on and can depend on to keep one physically (of course you can go into the energetics but I keep it simple) alive.
You are living and walking right on it............
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Re: Spirit And Matter

Post  KapitanScarlet on Mon 29 Nov 2010, 15:40

Do you refer to the "eArth" if so, it could also kill you if u in an earthquake zone, sunami zone, dont have correct clothing or electricity in a frost zone, in a high sun zone etc .
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Re: Spirit And Matter

Post  seraphim on Wed 01 Dec 2010, 06:38

Do you refer to the "eArth" if so, it could also kill you if u in an earthquake zone, sunami zone, dont have correct clothing or electricity in a frost zone, in a high sun zone etc .
A person has got to accept death as much as they do life.
Getting back to the subject, if I can substantiate the irrevocability of a lie, can we agree that its converse can then be considered an "irrevocable truth?"
That which makes you live can also kill you.

Wish I could be more lighthearted in replying but it's an irrevocable truth that's taken for granted.
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