Spirit And Matter

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Re: Spirit And Matter

Post  KapitanScarlet on Wed 01 Dec 2010, 17:13

I would have to say that that is exactly what I am guilty of to some extent: "attempting to correct and contrive". In my defense, I'd offer that it is much easier to see the mistake once I've made it.

I think people do it in differing doses , to exagerate , to create awe and to manipulate events disclosures to suit their egos desire
Im sure ive done it in the past , but being conscious of it is the first moment to overcoming it


For example, take two individuals, one living by the Golden Rule and the other living conversely to it. Maintaining the assumption of the "consciously sane" we may conclude that no one purposely lives their lives based on a lie and therefore, both individuals are living by their own subjective truth.

Thus, upon interaction between them, the latter will feel his truth to be validated while the former will not. What I mean is, someone living by the Golden Rule will be treated poorly by someone living conversely to it. Such an experience betrays the expectations of the one following such precepts.

This in turn, may persuade some to abandon the Golden Rule but it doesn't refute it, for expectations belong to the human condition, not to the paradigm of universal truth.

Im just wondering if the golden rule itself is just another portion of evidence that a person believes in the innate decency of humanity , and presumes that others will also share or feel that belief and thus align with this golden rule , but it (golden rule) is always dependent on, as you say , the individuals subjective relationship with truth , people can also be brought up with that golden rule in mind, so that they may have allegiance to it without the actual belief in its roots of spirituality. They might just adhere to it because they have been taught to
And what are the limits of the golden rule, just physical actions or expressed words. Does it also cover the subconscious psychic rumblings because you could have 2 people together both adherring to the golden rule, but one feeling really awkward because their subconscious energy is repelled by the other, this means that it would be better to call a halt to the physical interaction of the golden rule and just stop interacting , even if one of them had just carried out part 1 of a golden rule action awaiting its return favour from the other , but the other might realise first that this was a bad interaction at the subjective energy level and just pull out of all communications , leaving the less subjectively aware persona who had carried out part 1 of the golden rule feeling hard done by, because the other person never reciprocated their favour , so this golden rule must also operate in the psychic world of thoughts and then one must hope that the other person also has their golden rule sensors activated for the psychic realm of thoughts otherwise a misunderstanding could occur where none was ever intended .
Example, a householder brings in a neighbours refuse bin from the roadside thinking their doing the neighbour a favour, but the more psychic activated neighbour already feels that there is incompatable energy between the two of them at that time, and so does not then return the favour when given the oppurtunity, the householder may feel insulted their idea of the golden rule was not recognised, but the neighbour already knows from experience that sometimes its better not to force conversation because it can misrepresent the self which can then lead to betraying the self, but then again sometimes a compromise may be required if only to recognise the others intent of the golden rule but not to encourage further offerings unless there is a real feeling for such, but both people are very different in their interpretations of what is sincerely worthy of evoking a golden rule act, one may act from boredom, the other only from sincere feeling to do so, it could and does get complicated ….....
Im not disagreeing with your theories bobdog just spinning into more questions as is my fate (:
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Re: Spirit And Matter

Post  seraphim on Wed 08 Dec 2010, 09:31

Bobdog, I don't believe there are moral principles on the other side, just nature's rules, one can use them or not. And then maybe there are no
rules in some other realms. Right now I'm righting papers for another person taking a bioethics class and to tell you the truth it's all about society ruling and regulating the human being, something I don't want to be a part of. One's morals, for most people, are not really their own, when I think about it. One is supposed to adopt a rule that works, but that's not the case, a group of folks decides for the whole of society, thus the individual. So I would have to say that those morals are not absolute. I would have talked alot more about the moral and ethics you brought up, but I'm so busy. Besides I felt like I would have just butted in and I don't care to do that, but I'm doing that now :bouncing:, even though I'm writing about it in a class.

The earth is anything but permanent I believe, it is constantly changing and before you know it according to how the universe works, which may be in a blink of an eye and may turn the earth into stardust or a comet who knows.
The earth abides by principles that is hard for a person to understand because a person's mind is so closed. It's like this very great and complicated Being.

Once again I just had to make that statement, it's so important folks can see that one minute they may be alive and the next gone
and that things change. And that the morals of one's own life (which are basically given to a person, they have no decision on making them) don't even compare to that truth about the earth, in turn could be compared to the microcosmic human, which is more of a truth I believe because it comes from something greater.
EDIT, so what I was trying to say is that the rules and morals and truths of the microcosmic is based on the larger macrocosmic.
And the most surprising thing of all is that in America and Europe people do not deal with death at all but constantly fight about, if it's right or wrong to commit suicide and especially about euthanasia. People fight about it and against one of life's main truths: death.
Sorry but one cannot fight the earth.

It's about time folks went back to their roots and celebrated death, and my goodness and once and for all, LIFE, their own! Dammit!
Can't do either it seems in this decrepit reality world we live in.

Treat others like you would like to be treated? I think that is a great golden rule. But that's been made hard to do. Why. Because of the morals/aka/rules. And then the programming, it's alright to disrespect and treat others real bad nowadays and oneself, that is the norm. So people treat each other terribly. A person cannot take control of there own self these days, so it's impossible to truly treat another like one would like to be treated.
How about the golden rule of not interfering with another's free will. That's long gone too..........
I wasn't fortunate to read fine literature like Emerson, but since you asked I will go and read more of Emerson and give you my humble opinion okay.
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Re: Spirit And Matter

Post  KapitanScarlet on Wed 08 Dec 2010, 17:42

Bobdog wrote:
all of these examples infer "expectation". That's where this theory of the Golden Rule goes wrong between people. If living life by the Golden Rule without expectation, then that's living without concern for others' behavior towards oneself or anyone else. This liberates actions and attitudes from being influenced by others. But it's also very hard to do because ego seems inescapeable. That hidden concern for what others think tries to creep into motives for doing and being at nearly every step along the way in interactions with others.

That's why it's such a paradox, because I'm not saying one shouldn't care about others. But if one is truly modelling actions on his understanding of the Golden Rule, then that is caring about others and if done without expectation, then that is caring about self as well. Concerning oneself with how others behave in return is not self-edifying, it's self-centered. Expectation is ego-based, not _______-based. You can fill in the blank with whatever you think is opposite of ego. It could be spirit or soul or true self or nothingness or???

Good point about "expectation" bobdog, but personally i cant avoid it , its always there for me, if not immediately consciously , then will surface at the next oppurtune moment, the best i can do is offer someone a probationary period where expectation is not immediate, but sooner or later , i do expect , if not, then i take actions to avoid , or try harder to stimulate the manifestation of the expectation .
If there is a God ? does it not expect ....its insatiable (; .... but if there are people who could operate the golden rule without expectation, then i will be pleased to hear any theory on how that is achieved, i suppose jesus may be a nice example, just loving people without expecting them to return it, but if he had no expectation for a return, it may just mean that he had developed a more omnipotent expectation that was being constantly met and thus overiding any small individual expectations from beings , that being , he was doing the lords work, so his expectation was of constantly feeling divine which he did by the nature of being the son of god , if he woke up one day, and had lost his faith, he might start re-expecting these individual golden rule deeds to be returned by individuals to make him feel he was achieving something , or at least being given due credence by his individual encounters
So i can understand how individual expectation can be de-activated by having a more omnipotent expectation being met by something beyond individual expression , something spiritual, serving a higher spirit cause


Living by the GR doesn't neccesarily mean "doing" things for others. Maybe I want a million dollars so I think if I live by the GR then that means I should go give someone else a million dollars. All truths can be interpretated with exageration. There should be some measure of comon sense applied in all reasoning. Sure, one person's common sense is different from another's, but there is some middle ground here. If there wasn't, societies would not exist. They would be overrun with chaos. (By the way, that bit about common sense was not in response to anything you said. I wasn't suggesting you weren't using common sense. I led myself there as a natural progression from discussing action.)
Yes its been proven by successful communes and clans, tribes that there seems to be some common denominator of what is sensible that can in itself be cultivated into ethical practices , so this fact lends evidence that there is an inherent golden rule in human nature .
My incomplete theory is that by genuine empathic understandings and encounters, a persona is rewarded by pleasure and harmony, but these things cannot be universally monitored or recorded therefore they are always free of corruption and therefore manipulations , and even their judge and provider remains invisible under the guise of a god or something incomprehensible using the day senses.



The fact that societies function is an indication of an underlying set of common understandings of interaction. Although, I suspect that the reason for this is just the opposite of the GR. People regard others in society as a means of avoiding consequences for the actions they'd really like to commit. If this wasn't true, then government or law enforcement wouldn't be neccesary. Even though I am, for the most part, a libertarian (meaning I advocate minimized organized government and maximized self-government), I still see the need for it to some degree. And it is needed precisely because there are many who live in direct opposition to the GR. In other words, it's not that they don't lead a life of crime because such actions would not serve them well if others were living the same way, they don't lead a life of crime because they don't want to get caught.
Absolutely agree with these comments

Almost all actions come down to this decision in one way or another. I think the fate of our species hangs in the balance over this decision. Which side we come down on may make us or break us.

If one cannot overcome his concern for expectations, then withdrawal from interaction is probably the best course. But this obviously can only apply to specific engagements because most people can't completely withdraw from all interaction with everyone. And it is in these commonly unavoidable interactions where we have the chance to express the GR.

If I enter a store and am consciously present in my actions at the time, I will hold the door open for the person entering behind me. I know this is a GR action because whenever someone doesn't hold a door open for me my first thought is to feel slighted, thinking "I wouldn't have done that to him/her." But that's expectation again. The whispered presence of expectation in an action indicates an underlying notion of the GR frameworking that interaction.

The trick is to refuse to keep company with one's own expectations.

Expectations can sometimes be my misperception, as in the door example, a person may have been daydreaming and not detected me behind them and so let the door go, it may have not been intentional, but i could perceive that person as being an ignoramous, but i would in reality think 3 possibles, they never detected me, they were an ignoramous, or maybe they were just feeling shit and couldnt be assed holding the door open.
I would have the free choice to choose one of these reasons and then adjust expectation afterwards, i could make excuses for them or blame them, either way, i am having a dealing with my own expectations , if i make excuses for them , thats fine, but it could be that i then encounter some other people whom take actions that i have to make excuses for, and i could reach breaking point and then overeact to something that did not deserve it because i had being suppressing my reactions based on some spiritual faith, i guess that is when the faith is tested, when its under strain by ones expectations being continually compromised or denied.
But to have no expectations or just to transmute the expectation onto another level of perception , that is a thought for me to browse over

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Re: Spirit And Matter

Post  KapitanScarlet on Mon 13 Dec 2010, 01:10

The Ahrimanic Deception - Steiner Lecture 1919

In addressing a public audience today on the most important question of our time, it makes a great difference if one speaks from a knowledge of the deeper forces of world-historical evolution, that is, from initiation-science, or if one speaks without such knowledge. It is relatively easy to speak about modern questions if one relies upon data of external knowledge which are considered scientific, practical, and so on. It is, however, extraordinarily difficult to speak about these questions from the standpoint of initiation-science — from which indeed everything is derived with which we have to deal at such gatherings as ours today. For he who speaks from that standpoint about problems of the time knows that he is opposed not only by the casual, subjective opinions of those to whom he speaks. He knows too that a great part of mankind today is already under the control, from one side or another, of Ahrimanic forces of a cosmic nature which are growing stronger and stronger. To explain what I mean by this, I must give you a kind of historical survey of a fairly long period of human history.

From various statements which have been made here and which you will also find in some of my lecture-courses, you know that we have to place the beginning of our modern age in the middle of the fifteenth century. We have always called this period — of which we are really only at the beginning — the Fifth Post-Atlantean epoch. It has replaced the Greco-Latin Epoch, which we reckon from the middle of the eighth century B.C. to the middle of the fifteenth century; and further back still, we have the Egyptian-Chaldean epoch. I have merely indicated this so that you may remember where, in human evolution as a whole, we place the epoch in which we feel ourselves standing as modern men.

Now you know that at the close of the first third of the Greco-Latin Epoch, the Mystery of Golgotha took place. And from many different aspects we have characterized what really came about for human evolution through the Mystery of Golgotha, in fact for the whole evolution of the earth. Today, into this broad historical survey, we will place various things concerning mankind which are connected with this Mystery.

With this in view, let us glance back into far earlier times, let us say, into the ages about the beginning of the third millennium B.C. You are aware how little is said in external historical tradition about this early evolution of the human race on earth. You know, too, how external documents point over to Asia, to the Orient. From many anthroposophical sources, you will know that the further we go back in mankind's evolution, the more we find a different constitution of the human soul, and something like an ancient, original wisdom underlying the whole evolution of humanity. You know, further, that certain traditions of an ancient wisdom of mankind were preserved in close, secret circles, right into the nineteenth century. They have even been preserved into our own time — but not, for the most part, at all faithfully.

When a man of today learns to know something of this original wisdom, he is astounded at the depths of the realities to which it points. Yet in the course of the studies we have been pursuing for many years, it has been shown that this widespread wisdom-teaching of ancient times must always be contrasted with the understanding of life and the world that was possessed by the old Hebrew people and bore a completely different character. With a certain justice the widespread original wisdom is described as the heathen, pagan element, and to this is opposed the Hebrew, Jewish element. From external traditions and literature you are aware how the Christian element then arose out of the Jewish.

You can already gather from these external facts something that I beg you to bear in mind, namely, that it was essential in humanity's evolution to confront the ancient heathen element and its wisdom with the Jewish element out of which Christianity evolved partially, at all events. The primeval heathen or pagan wisdom in its totality was not destined to have the sole influence on the further evolution of mankind. And now the question must arise: Why had the ancient pagan wisdom, which is in many respects so wonderful, to experience a new form, a transformation, through Judaism and Christianity? This question inevitably arises.

The answer is supplied for Initiation-wisdom only through a very, very weighty fact, through an event which took place far over in Asia at the beginning of the third millennium of the pre-Christian era. Clairvoyant vision finds in looking back that an incarnation of a supersensible Being in a human being had taken place there, just as in the Event of Golgotha an incarnation of the supersensible Christ Being had taken place in the man Jesus of Nazareth. The incarnation that took place at the beginning of the third millennium B.C. is extraordinarily difficult to follow up, even with the science of seership, of initiation. It gave humanity something of immense brilliance, having an incisive effect. What it gave to humanity, in fact, was the primeval wisdom.

Viewed externally, one can say that it was a wisdom penetrating deep into reality; cold, based purely on ideas, permeated little by feeling. The actual inner nature of this wisdom can be judged only by going back to that incarnation which took place over in Asia at the beginning of the third pre-Christian millennium. It is revealed to the retrospective clairvoyant gaze that this was an actual human incarnation of the Luciferic Power.

And this incarnation of Lucifer in humanity, which in a certain way has been achieved, was the origin of the widely extended ancient wisdom based on the Third Post-Atlantean civilization.

There was still an after-effect, even in Grecian times, of the widespread cultural impulse that was derived from this Asiatic, Luciferic human being. Luciferic wisdom was of the utmost benefit to man in that epoch of evolution — brilliant in a certain way, graduated according to the different peoples and races among which it was spread. It was plainly recognizable throughout the whole of Asia, then in the Egyptian civilization, the Babylonian civilization and even in the culture of Greece.

All that was possible to the humanity of that time in thought, in the realm of poetry, in deeds, was in a certain way determined through the entry of this Luciferic impulse into human civilization.

It would, of course, be extraordinarily philistine to wish to say: That was an incarnation of Lucifer, hence we must flee from it! Such philistinism could make one also flee from the beauty and greatness that has come to mankind from this Luciferic stream, for the fruits of Greek culture with all their beauty, proceeded, as already said, from this stream of evolution. The whole of Gnostic thought existing at the time of the Mystery of Golgotha, an impressive wisdom shedding light deep into cosmic realities — this whole Gnostic knowledge was inspired by the impulse coming from Luciferic forces. One must not say that Gnostic thought is therefore false; one is merely characterizing it by saying that it is permeated by Luciferic forces.

Then, considerably more than two thousand years after the Luciferic incarnation, came the Mystery of Golgotha. It may be said that the men among whom the impulse of this Mystery spread were still fully imbued in their thinking and feeling with what had come from the impulse of Lucifer. And now there entered into the evolution of civilized humanity an entirely different impulse, the impulse proceeding from the Christ. We have often spoken of what this Christ Impulse signifies within civilized humanity. The Christ-Impulse — I will only touch on this today — was taken up by the hearts and minds that I have just characterized. One might say that it shone into all the best that came to man from Lucifer. And in the first Christian centuries, men understood the Christ through what they had received from Lucifer. These things must be faced without prejudice; otherwise it is not really possible to understand the particular way in which the Christ Impulse was received in the first centuries of our era.

As the Luciferic impulse began to fade more and more, men were also increasingly unable to absorb the Christ Impulse in the right way. Consider how much has become materialistic in the course of modern times. But if you ask yourself what in particular has become materialistic, you must receive the answer: a great part of modern Christian theology. For it is simply the starkest materialism to which a great part of modern Christian theology succumbs when it no longer sees the Christ in the man Jesus of Nazareth. It sees only the human being, the `simple man of Nazareth,' the man whom one can understand if one will only raise one's self a little to some sort of higher understanding. The more the man Jesus of Nazareth could be regarded as an ordinary human being, one belonging to the ranks of other noted human personalities, the better it pleased a certain materialistic trend of modern theology. Of the supersensible element of the Event of Golgotha, modern theology is willing to recognize little, very little.

The impulses entering humanity from a Luciferic source sank down gradually into the soul. On the other hand, however, another impulse, which we call the Ahrimanic, is growing stronger and stronger in modern times. It will become increasingly strong in the near future and on into future ages. The Ahrimanic impulse proceeds from a supersensible Being different from the Being of Christ or of Lucifer. Equally with `supersensible' one can say `subsensible' — but that is not the point here. The influence of this Being becomes especially powerful in the Fifth Post-Atlantean Epoch. If we look at the confused conditions of recent years we shall find that men have been brought to such chaotic conditions mainly through the Ahrimanic powers.

Just as there was an incarnation of Lucifer at the beginning of the third pre-Christian millennium, as there was the Christ Incarnation at the time of the Mystery of Golgotha, so there will be a Western incarnation of the Ahriman being some little time after our present earthly existence, in fact, in the third post-Christian millennium. To form a right conception of the historical evolution of mankind during approximately 6000 years, one must grasp that at the one pole stands a Luciferic incarnation, in the center, the incarnation of Christ, and at the other pole the Ahrimanic incarnation. Lucifer is the power that stirs up in man all fanatical, all falsely mystical forces, all that physiologically tends to bring the blood into disorder and so lift man above and outside himself. Ahriman is the power that makes man dry, prosaic, philistine — that ossifies him and brings him to the superstition of materialism. And the true nature and being of man is essentially the effort to hold the balance between the powers of Lucifer and Ahriman; the Christ Impulse helps present humanity to establish this equilibrium.

Thus these two poles — the Luciferic and the Ahrimanic — are continuously present in man. Viewed historically, we find that the Luciferic preponderated in certain currents of cultural development of the pre-Christian age and continued into the first centuries of our era. On the other hand the Ahrimanic influence has been at work since the middle of the fifteenth century and will increase in strength until an actual incarnation of Ahriman takes place among Western humanity.

Now it is characteristic of such things that they are prepared long in advance. Ahrimanic powers prepare the evolution of mankind in such a way that it can fall a prey to Ahriman when he appears in human form within Western civilization — hardly then to be called `civilization' in our sense — as once Lucifer appeared in human form in China, as once Christ appeared in human form in Asia Minor. It is of no avail to give oneself illusions today about these things. Ahriman will appear in human form and the only question is, how he will find humanity prepared. Will his preparations have secured for him as followers the whole of mankind that today calls itself civilized, or will he find a humanity that can offer resistance. It does not help at all to give oneself up to illusions. People nowadays flee the truth, and one cannot give it to them in an unvarnished form because they would ridicule it and scoff and jeer. But if one gives it to them through the “Threefold Social Organism” as one now tries to do, then they will not have it either — not the majority, at any rate. The fact that people reject these things is just one of the means which the Ahrimanic powers can use and which will give Ahriman the greatest possible following when he appears in human form on earth. This disregard of the weightiest truths is precisely what will build Ahriman the best bridge to the success of his incarnation. And nothing will help us to find the right position in regard to the part played by Ahriman in human evolution except an unprejudiced study of the forces through which Ahriman's influence works, as well as learning to know the forces through which mankind can arm itself against being tempted and led astray. For this reason we will cast a brief glance today at various things which would foster support of Ahriman and which Ahrimanic powers, working out of supersensible worlds through human minds down here, will particularly employ in order to make his following as numerous as possible.

One of the means is this — that it is not realized what is the actual significance for man of certain kinds of thought and conception which predominate in modern times. You know, indeed, what a great difference there is between the way a man felt himself to be within the whole cosmos in the Egyptian age, let us say, and even in the time of Greece, and how he feels since the beginning of the modern age, since the close of the Middle Ages. Picture to yourselves a well-instructed ancient Egyptian. He knew that his body was constituted not merely of the ingredients which exist here on earth and are embodied in the animal kingdom, plant kingdom, mineral kingdom. He knew that the forces which he saw in the stars above, worked into his being as man; he felt himself a member of the whole cosmos. He felt the whole cosmos not only quick with life, but ensouled and imbued with spirit; in his consciousness there lived something of the spiritual beings of the cosmos, of the soul-nature of the cosmos and its life. All this has been lost in the course of later human history. Today man gazes from his earth up to the star-world and to him it is filled with fixed stars, suns, planets, comets, and so on. But with what means does he examine all that looks down to him out of cosmic space? He examines it with mathematics, with the science of mechanics. What lies around the earth is robbed of spirit, robbed of soul, even of life. It is a great mechanism, in fact, only to be grasped by the aid of mathematical, mechanistic laws. With the help of these mathematical, mechanistic laws we grasp it magnificently! A student of spiritual science is undoubtedly just the one to value the achievements of a Galileo, a Kepler, and others, but what penetrates human understanding and consciousness through the tenets of these great spirits in human evolution merely shows the universe as a great mechanism.

What this means is only revealed to one who is able to grasp man in his whole nature. It is all very well for astronomers and astro-physicists to present the universe as a mechanism which can be understood and calculated by mathematical formulae. This indeed is what a man will believe in the time from waking in the morning till going to sleep again at night. But in those unconscious depths which he does not reach with his waking consciousness but which yet belong to his existence and in which he lives between going to sleep and waking, something quite different concerning the universe flows into his soul. There lives in the human soul a knowledge which, although unknown to the waking consciousness, is yet present in the depths and moulds the soul — a knowledge of the spirit, of the life of the soul, of the life of the cosmos. And although in his waking consciousness man knows nothing of what goes on there in communion with the spirit, soul and life of the universe while he sleeps — in the soul the things are there; they live within it. And much of the great discord felt by modern man is derived from the disharmony between what the soul experiences and what the waking consciousness acknowledges as its world-conception.

And what does the whole spirit and purport of anthroposophical spiritual science say about such things? It says: What the ideas of Galileo, Copernicus, have brought to mankind is grand and mighty, but not an absolute truth, by no means an absolute truth. It is one aspect of the universe, one side from a certain standpoint. It is only through the arrogance of modern man that people say today: “Ptolemaic world-system — childishness; that is what men had when they were still children. We have made such great strides — right `to the stars' and that is what we now take as the absolute.” It is just as little an absolute as the Ptolemaic system was an absolute, it is one aspect. The only right view — according to spiritual science — is to realize that all that is accepted by way of mere world-mathematics, mere world-schematism of a mechanical order, does not furnish man with absolute truth about the universe, but with illusions. The illusions are necessary because mankind goes through varied forms of education in its different stages of evolution. For modern education we need these illusions of a mathematical nature about the universe, we must acquire them, but we must know that they are illusions. And most of all they are illusions when we transpose them into our daily environment, when, in accordance with the atomic or molecular theories, we even endeavour to create a kind of astronomy for the substances of the earth. A right attitude in regard to the whole of modern science, insofar as it thinks along these lines, will recognize that its knowledge is illusion.

Now, in order that his incarnation may take the most profitable form, it is of the utmost interest to Ahriman that people should perfect themselves in all our illusory modern science, but without knowing that it is illusion. Ahriman has the greatest possible interest in instructing men in mathematics, but not in instructing them that mathematical-mechanistic concepts of the universe are merely illusions. He is intensely interested in bringing men chemistry, physics, biology and so on, as they are presented today in all their remarkable effects, but he is interested in making men believe that these are absolute truths, not that they are only points of view, like photographs from one side. If you photograph a tree from one side, it can be a correct photograph, yet it does not give a picture of the whole tree. If you photograph it from four sides, you can in any case get an idea of it. To conceal from mankind that in modern intellectual, rationalistic science with its supplement of a superstitious empiricism, one is dealing with a great illusion, a deception — that men should not recognize this is of the greatest possible interest to Ahriman. It would be a triumphant experience for him if the scientific superstition which grips all circles today and by which men even want to organize their social science, should prevail into the third millennium. He would have the greatest success if he could then come as a human being into Western civilization and find the scientific superstition.

But I ask you not to draw false conclusions from what I have just said. It would be a false conclusion to avoid the science of the day; that is the very falsest conclusion which could be drawn. We must get to know science; we should get an exact knowledge of all that comes from this direction — but with the full consciousness that we are receiving an illusory aspect, an illusion necessary for our education as men. We do not safeguard ourselves against Ahriman by avoiding modern science, but by learning to know its character. For modern science gives us an external illusion of the universe, and we need this illusion. Do not imagine that we do not need it. We must only fill it in from quite another side with actual reality gained through spiritual research, we must rise from the illusory character to the true reality. You will find reference in many of my lecture-courses to what I am telling you today, and you will see how everywhere it has been sought to enter fully into the science of our time, but to lift it all to the sphere where one can see its real value. You cannot wish to get rid of the rainbow because you know it to be an illusion of light and color! You will not understand it if you do not realize its illusory character. But it is just the same with all that modern science gives you for your imagination of the universe, it gives only illusions and that must be recognized. It is by educating oneself through these illusions that one arrives at the reality.

This, then, represents one of the means used by Ahriman to make his incarnation as effective as possible — this keeping of man back in scientific superstition.

The second means that he employs is to stir up all the emotions that split men up into small groups — groups that mutually attack one another. You need only look at all the conflicting parties that exist today, and if you are unprejudiced you will recognize that the explanation is not to be found merely in human nature. If men honestly try to explain this so-called World War through human dis-harmonies, they will realize that with what they find in physical humanity they cannot explain it. It is precisely here that “supersensible” powers, Ahrimanic powers, have been at work.

These Ahrimanic powers are working, in fact, wherever dis-harmonies arise between groups of men. Now the question arises on what foundation is most of what we are considering based?

Let us proceed from a very characteristic example. — The modern proletariat has had its Karl Marx. Observe closely how the doctrines of Karl Marx have been spread among the proletariat, with Marxist literature reaching practically immeasurable proportions. You will find all the methods of our present-day science used in the books; everything is strictly proved, so strictly proved that many people, of whom one would never have supposed it, have fallen victim to Marxism. What was the actual destiny of Marxism? It spread at first, as you know, among the proletariat and was firmly rejected by university science. Today there are already a number of university scientists who have veered round to acknowledging Marxist logic. They adhere to it because its literature has proved that its conclusions are in excellent accord, that from the standpoint of modern science Marxism can be quite neatly proved. Middle-class circles have unfortunately had no Karl Marx who could have proved the opposite for them; for just as one can prove the ideological character of right, morality, and so forth, the theory of surplus value and materialistic historical research from the Marxist standpoint, so is it possible to prove their exact opposite. A middle-class, bourgeois-Marx would be fully able to prove the exact opposite by the same strict method. There is no sort of swindle or humbug about it; the proof would work out right.

Whence does this come? It comes from the fact that present human thinking, the present intellect, lies in a stratum of being where it does not reach down to realities. One can therefore prove something quite strictly, and also prove its opposite. It is possible today to prove spiritualism on the one hand and materialism on the other. And people may fight against each other from equally good standpoints because present-day intellectualism is in an upper layer of reality and does not go down into the depths of being. And it is the same with party opinions. A man who does not look deeper but simply lets himself be accepted into a certain party-circle — by reason of his education, heredity, circumstances of life and State — quite honestly believes — or so he thinks — in the possibility of proving the tenets of the party into which he has slipped, as he says. And then — then he fights against someone else who has slipped into another party! And the one is just as right as the other. This calls forth chaos and confusion over mankind that will gradually become greater and greater unless men see through it. Ahriman makes use of this confusion in order to prepare the triumph of his incarnation and to drive men with increasing force into what they find so difficult to realize — namely, that by intellectual or modern scientific reasoning today, one can prove anything and equally well prove its opposite. The point is for us to recognize that everything can be proved and for that reason to examine the proofs put forward in science today. It is only in natural science that reality is shown by the facts; in no other field can one consider intellectual proofs valid. The only way to escape the danger that threatens if one accepts the lures of Ahriman and his desire to drive men deeper and deeper into these things, is to realize through anthroposophical spiritual science that human knowledge must be sought for in a stratum deeper than that in which the validity of our proofs arises. And so, in order to create dissensions, Ahriman also makes use of what develops from the old conditions of heredity which man has really outgrown in the Fifth Post-Atlantean Epoch. The Ahrimanic powers use all that is derived from old circumstances of heredity in order to set men against each other in conflicting groups. All that comes from old differences of family, race, tribe, peoples, is used by Ahriman to create confusion. “Freedom for every nation, even the smallest . . .” These were fine-sounding words. But the powers hostile to man always use fine words in order to bring confusion and in order to attain the things that Ahriman wishes to attain for his incarnation.

If we inquire: Who stirs up nations against each other? Who raises the questions that are directing humanity today? — the answer is: the Ahrimanic deception which plays into human life. And in this field men very easily let themselves be deceived. They are not willing to descend to the lower strata where reality is to be found. For, you see, Ahriman skillfully prepares his goal beforehand; ever since the Reformation and the Renaissance, the economist has been emerging in modern civilization as the representative governing type. That is an actual historical fact. If you go back to ancient times, even to those that I have characterized today as the Luciferic — who were the governing types then? Initiates. The Egyptian Pharaohs, the Babylonian rulers, the Asiatic rulers — they were initiates. Then the priest-type emerged as ruler and the priest-type was really the ruler right up to the Reformation and the Renaissance. Since that time the economist has been in command. Rulers are in fact merely the handymen, the understrappers of the economists. One must not imagine that the rulers of modern times are anything but the understrappers of the economists. And all that has resulted by way of law and justice — one should only study it carefully — is simply a consequence of what economically oriented men have thought. In the nineteenth century the “economical” man is replaced for the first time by the man thinking in terms of banking, and in the nineteenth century there is created for the first time the organization of finance which swamps every other relationship. One must only be able to look into these things and follow them up empirically and practically.

All that I stated in the second public lecture here (The Social Future, October 25, 1919) is profoundly true. One could only wish that it were followed up in all details; it would then be seen how fundamentally true these things are. But just because this rulership of the mere `symbol for solid goods' (that is to say, money — quotation from the lecture) has arisen, Ahriman has been given another essential medium for the deception of mankind. If men do not realize that the rights-state and the organism of the Spirit must be set against the economic order called up through the economists and the banks, then again, through this lack of awareness, Ahriman will find an important instrument for preparing his incarnation. His incarnation is undoubtedly coming, and this lack of insight will enable him to prepare it triumphantly.

Such means can be used by Ahriman for a certain type of man. But there is another type — indeed the two are often mixed in one personality — and this also, from a different direction, provides Ahriman with an easy way to success.

Now it is a fact that in real life, total errors are not so harmful as half- or quarter-truths. Total errors are soon seen through, whereas half- and quarter-truths mislead people. They live with them, these partial truths become a pan of life and cause the most horrible devastation.

There are people today who do not realize the one-sidedness of the Galileo-Copernican world-conception, or who at least do not see its illusory character, or are too easygoing to examine it. We have just shown how wrong that is. But there are also people today, numberless people who acknowledge a certain half-truth, a very significant half-truth, and who do not go into the question of the purely hypothetical justification of it. Strange as it may appear to many people, it is just as one-sided to view the world solely through the Gospel and reject any other search into true reality, as it is to view the world from the standpoint of Galileo and Copernicus, or of university materialistic science in general.

The Gospel was given to those who lived in the first centuries of Christianity, and to believe that today the Gospel can give the whole of Christianity is simply a half-truth. It is therefore also a half-error which befogs people and thus furnishes Ahriman with the best means of attaining the goal and the triumph of his incarnation.

How numerous are those who think they are speaking out of Christian humility, but in reality out of dreadful arrogance, when they say: “Oh, we need no spiritual science! The homeliness, the simplicity of the Gospels leads us to what men need of the eternal!” A frightful arrogance is expressed, for the most part, in this apparent humility, which can very well be used by Ahriman in the sense I have indicated. For do not forget what I explained at the beginning of today's lecture, how in the time in which the Gospel falls, men were still permeated by the Luciferic impulse in their thought, feeling and general views, and that they could understand the Gospel by a certain Luciferic Gnosis. But the grasp of the Gospel in this old sense is not possible today. No real understanding of the Christ can be gained if one relies merely on the Gospel, especially in the form in which it has been handed down. There exists nowhere today a less true understanding of Christ than in the various faiths and confessions.

The Gospel must be deepened by spiritual science if we wish to gain an actual grasp of the Christ. It is then interesting to examine the separate Gospels and arrive at their real content. To accept the Gospel as it is and as numberless people accept it today, and particularly as it is taught today, is not a path to Christ; it is a path away from Christ. Hence the confessions are moving further and further away from Christ. To what sort of Christ-conception does a man come who will accept the Gospel and only the Gospel, without the depth given by spiritual science? He comes ultimately to a Christ — but that is the utmost that he can reach through the Gospel alone. It is not a reality of the Christ, for today only spiritual science can lead to that. What the Gospel leads to is an hallucination of the Christ, a real inner picture or vision, yet only a picture. The Gospel today provides the way to come to a vision of the Christ, but not to the reality of Christ. That is just the reason why modern theology has become so materialistic. Theological commentators and expounders of the Gospel have asked themselves: What is to be made of the Gospel? They decide at length that in their view the result is similar to what one gets when one examines the case of Paul before Damascus. And then these theologians, who are supposed to confirm Christianity, but who really undermine it, say: Paul was simply ill, suffering from nerves and he had a vision before Damascus.

The point is that through the Gospel itself one can come only to hallucinations, to visions, but not to realities; the Gospel does not give us the real Christ, but only an hallucination of the Christ. The real Christ must be sought today through all that can be gained from a spiritual knowledge of the world.

These very people who swear by the Gospel alone and reject every kind of real spiritual knowledge, form the beginning of a flock for Ahriman when he appears in human shape in modern civilization. From these circles, from these members of confessions and sects who repulse the concrete knowledge brought by spiritual endeavor, whole hosts will develop as adherents of Ahriman. Now this is all beginning to come into existence. It is there, it is at work in present humanity and one who speaks to men today with the knowledge of spiritual science speaks into it, no matter whether he is speaking on social or other questions. He knows where the hostile powers lie, that they live supersensibly and that men are their poor misguided victims. This is the call to humanity: “Free yourselves from all these things that form such a great temptation to contribute to Ahriman's triumph!”

Many people have felt something of this sort. But there is not yet courage everywhere to come to an understanding with the historical impulses of the Christ, Lucifer and Ahriman in the urgent way that is necessary and that is emphasized by Anthroposophy. Even those who have an idea of what is necessary will not go far enough. For instance, look at examples where there arises some knowledge that the secular materialistic science with this Ahrimanic character must be permeated with the Christ Impulse, and how, on the other hand, the Gospel must be illuminated through the explanations of spiritual science. Consider how many people struggle to the point of really shedding light in either of these directions by means of spiritual-scientific knowledge! Yet humanity will only acquire the right attitude to the earthly incarnation of Ahriman if it sees through these things and has the courage, will and energy to illumine both secular science and the Gospel by the Spirit. Otherwise the result is always superficialities. Think, for example, of how Cardinal Newman — who, after all, was an enlightened man, one who followed modern religious development — at the time of his investiture as Cardinal in Rome stated openly in his address that if the Christian Catholic teaching was to survive, a new revelation was necessary. We have no need, however, of a new revelation; the time of revelations in the old sense is over. We need a new science, one that is illumined by the Spirit. But men must have the courage for such a new science.

Think of a literary phenomenon like the Lux Mundi movement that originated with certain eminent theologians, members of the English High Church, at the end of the eighties and beginning of the nineties of the last century. It consisted of a series of studies, imbued throughout with the endeavor to build a bridge from secular science to the contents of dogma. One might call it a floundering hither and thither, never a bold grasping of secular science, never an illumination of it with the spirit. There was no unprejudiced examination of the Gospel with the knowledge that the Gospel of itself is not enough today, that it must be elucidated and illumined. But mankind must be courageous in both directions and say: secular science by itself leads to illusion, the Gospel by itself leads to hallucination. The middle way between illusion and hallucination is found only by grasping reality through the Spirit. That is the point.

We must see through such things as these today. Purely mundane science would make men entirely subject to illusion; in fact ultimately they would commit only follies. Quite enough folly is perpetuated today already, for surely the World War catastrophe was a great folly! Yet many people were involved in it who were thoroughly saturated with the official secular science of our time. And if you notice what remarkable psychological phenomena at once crop up when some sect or other places one of the four Gospels in the foreground, then you will more easily understand what I have been saying about the Gospels today. See how strongly inclined to all sorts of hallucinations are sects that pay heed solely to the Gospel of St. John, or solely the Gospel of St. Luke! Fortunately there are four Gospels, which outwardly contradict one another, and this has so far prevented the great harm which such one-sidedness would cause. By being faced with four Gospels people do not go too far in the direction of the one, but have the others beside it. One Gospel is read aloud on one Sunday and another on another Sunday and so the illusory power of the one is counterbalanced by that of another. A great wisdom lies in the fact that these four Gospels have come down to the civilized world. In this way man is protected from being caught up by some one stream, which will take possession of him — as in the case of so many members of sects — if he is influenced by one Gospel alone. When solely one Gospel works upon him it is particularly clear how this leads at last to hallucination.

In fact, it is essential today to give up much of one's subjective inclination, much of what one is attached to and thinks pious or clever. Mankind must above all seek universality and the courage to look at things from all sides.

I wished to say this to you today so that you may realize that what one tries now to bring about within humanity has truly deeper grounds than just some sort of subjective prejudice. In fact one can say that it is read from the signs of the times and that it must be brought about.
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Re: Spirit And Matter

Post  KapitanScarlet on Tue 14 Dec 2010, 12:36

This explanation is one that elaborates it well Bobdog

INTRODUCTORY ESSAYS
ON RUDOLF STEINER'S STAR-KNOWLEDGE


Rudolf Steiner's Identification of the Zodiac

R.S.W.Bobbette
1997

Much has been written and could be said about zodiacs, all referring to the circle of the stars the sun passes in front of through its yearly course. The number of different zodiacs applied to this one circle lend a wonderful confusion to the discussion.

Rudolf Steiner reported a really staggering vision of the past, present and future importance of this circle of creative beings indicated by the stars, but I have not found a comprehensive definition of their division into zodiacal signs in his works I have surveyed so far. On the other hand, numerous facts he reported do allow a calculation of the zodiac signs he was talking about. I would like to present the most pertinent of these facts here in a chronological manner.

The first references to the zodiac I have found are on 26 Sept. 1905, when Steiner stated that the twelve levels of consciousness were related to the twelve sign of the zodiac; on 3 Oct., when the direct connection between cultural epochs and the precession of the equinoxes was listed such as on 8 Jan. 1918, below; and on 8 Oct. 1905, when he spoke of the spring equinox entering the constellation of the Ram or Lamb about 800 B.C. and that of the Fishes about 1800 A.D., defining a zodiacal period as 2,600 years. (These lectures are in Foundations of Esotericism, 1983)

By June 1906, Steiner had revised his zodiacal period to 2,160 years and indicated consecutive ages of the same span going backward from the Ram at 800 B.C. through the Bull, the Twins, and the sign Cancer. (in: An Esoteric Cosmology, 1987) On 25 Aug., Steiner repeated the approximate dates for the Twins, Bull and Ram. (in: At the Gates of Spiritual Science, 1970)

The first indication of the eternal scale of the zodiac and of the time-period governance of all signs came on 22 Apr. 1907; “Before the Lemurian age the sun, moon and earth, united in one body, moved forward in terms of the zodiac. Time was measured following this movement. For this reason, the twelve signs of the zodiac are characterized as the heavenly clock and drawn as such.

“A planet alternates between pralaya, a cosmic night and manvantara, a cosmic day, just as we alternately pass through day and night. The planet passes through the signs of the zodiac during pralaya and manvantara; for that reason the twelve signs of the zodiac are counted twice, just as we also count two times twelve to equal twenty-four hours. The hours symbolize the signs of the zodiac.” (Reading the Pictures of the Apocalypse, 1993, pg. 22) Pralaya is the non-physical, highly spiritual “seed” stage of planetary evolution; manvantara the physical and lower spiritual, roughly speaking!

On 10 Sept. 1908, Steiner refined the entry of the equinox into the sign of the Ram to ca. 747 B.C..(in: Egyptian Myths and Mysteries, 1972) This will become a familiar date. On 15 Apr. 1909, he again gave the beginning of the Bull age as about 3000B.C. and the Ram age about 800 B.C..



Dr. Steiner seldom reported the association of specific stars with zodiac signs. One of the few instances I have found occurred on 18 Dec. 1910: “Take, for instance, the seven holy Rishis. The symbol of the Initiation into the Sun-Mysteries is the picture of the sun in Taurus. When the Sun stands in the sign of Taurus the spectacle in the firmament reveals the mystery of the particular Initiation of the Rishis. This Initiation took effect through the seven personalities who were the seven holy Rishis. This is also expressed in the fact that the Pleiades, a cluster of seven stars, shine from the same region of the heavens. That is, moreover, the region where the whole solar system entered into the Universe to which we belong.” (Background to the Gospel of St. Mark, 1968, pp. 206-211)

On 19 Jan. 1915, Steiner stated emphatically, “ . . . the time interval needed for the sun to progress from one constellation in the zodiac to the next is approximately 2,160 years, and this is important.” (The Destinies of Individuals and of Nations, 1987, pg. 70)

Steiner reported on 17 Sept. 1916, that the fourth post-Atlantean age began about 747 B.C. and ended about 1413 A.D., and that the fifth post-Atlantean age will continue for 2,160 years after 1413 A.D.. This thought was reinforced on 15 Jan. 1917: “This ecclesiastical element of cultus and hierarchy, which was a transformation of ancient Rome into the Roman Catholicism which streamed into Europe, is one of the impulses which continue to work like retarded impulses throughout the whole fifth post post-Atlantean period, but especially in its first third. You could, I might add, work out how long this is going to last. You know that one post-Atlantean period lasts approximately 2,160 years. One third of this is 720 years. So starting with the year 1415, this takes the main period to the year 2135.” (The Karma of Untruthfulness, Vol. II, 1992, pg. 114)

On 28 Jan., he explained: “You know that the position of the sun on the ecliptic at the spring equinox moves forward in the Zodiac. You know that this point has been designated, ever since mankind began to think, according to its position in the Zodiac. So from about the eighth century before the Mystery of Golgotha until about the fifteenth century after the Mystery of Golgotha, the sun of the spring equinox rose in the sign of the Ram, though not always at exactly the same spot. During this time the sun traversed the sign of the Ram. Since then, the sun of the spring equinox has been rising in the sign of the Fishes.” (The Karma of Untruthfulness, Vol. I, pg. 178)

Steiner again referred to the vernal sun on 13 Feb. 1917: “We know that now the sun rises in Pisces. Up to the fifteenth century it rose in Aries . . . ” (Cosmic and Human Metamorphosis, 1989, pp. 16-17)

On 13 Mar. 1917, Steiner threw some illumination on his lack of reference to the “connect-the-dot” star patterns normally identified as the zodiac. Referring to ancient man at the time of atavistic clairvoyance, Steiner said: “[Man] did not actually see the physical stars with external eyes; but he saw the spiritual part of the physical stars. Hence we must not look upon what is related of the ancient star-worship as though the ancients looked up to the stars and made all sorts of beautiful symbols and images.” (Cosmic and Human Metamorphosis, 1989, pp. 60-61)

On 18 Sept. 1917 the time span of the Graeco-Latin epoch was given as 747 B.C. to 1413 A.D.


On 5 Jan. 1918, Steiner said of the initiates of the Osiris myth, “They meant to say the old life in the Imagination vanished when the setting sun in Autumn stood in seventeen degrees of Scorpio and in the opposite point of the heavens the full moon rose in Taurus or in the Pleiades.” (Ancient Myths, 1971, pg. 18)

The correspondence between the post-Atlantean cultural epochs and the precession of the equinoxes is reported in detail on 8 Jan. 1918. The Ancient Indian epoch is identified with vernal Cancer; “Then the sun entered the sign of Gemini, the Twins, at the Vernal Equinox. And then as long as the Vernal Equinox continued to be in Gemini, we have to do with the second post-Atlantean cultural epoch, the original Persian . . . Then came the third; this was the age when the sun at the Venal Equinox entered Taurus, the Bull . . .

“Then came the Graeco-Latin time, the fourth post-Atlantean epoch. The sun entered Aries, the Ram, at the Vernal Equinox . . .

“But think of the great revolution that now comes with the 15th century when the Aries culture passes over to the Pisces (Fishes) culture. What the Pisces forces have become in the macrocosm are the forces in man connected with the feet. There is a transition from head to feet; the swing-over is an immense one.” (Ancient Myths, 1971, pp. 51-57)

Steiner reported on 11 Jan. 1918, “During the 2,160 years that followed the great Atlantean catastrophe mankind can be said to have been capable of development in a way quite different from what was possible later.” Two days later he noted, “Twelve epochs ago the sun was in the same position, so that towards the end of the Lemurian age there were conditions similar to ours.” (Ancient Myths, 1971, pp. 63-64 & 112-113) The latter day also saw him repeat 747B.C. as the beginning of the Graeco-Latin epoch. The dates for this epoch were again repeated on 11, 13 and 18 Oct.

On 19 Oct. 1918, Rudolf Steiner made this significant point: “Considered as a symptom, the French Revolution is extraordinarily interesting. It presents - in the form of slogans applied haphazardly and indiscriminately to the whole human being - that which must gradually be developed in the course of the epoch of the Consciousness Soul, from 1413 to the year 3573, with all the spiritual resources at man's disposal. The task of this epoch is to achieve fraternity on the physical plane, liberty on the psychic plane, and equality on the spiritual plane.” (From Symptom to Reality in Modern History, 1976, pp. 49-50) Again, on 25 Oct., he stated that the epoch of the Consciousness Soul began in 1413, and on 2 Nov. he said this date was the start of the fifth post-Atlantean epoch.

In an extensive discussion on 16 Apr. 1920, Steiner pointed to the well known fact that the sun moves backward (relative to its yearly course) against the stars at a rate of about one degree every seventy-two years. He has spoken all along of this movement underlying the sun's passage through the zodiac, but this is the first specific mention of the detailed rate that I have found. On 8 May 1920, he reported the duration of the Graeco-Latin epoch as 747 B.C.-1413 A.D.

On 24 Nov. 1921, the Greek epoch was identified with the sun in Vernal Aries, after the following comments: “The changing position of the Sun in the zodiacal constellations through the various epochs has been taken as an indication of the different forces which pour down to man from the world of the fixed stars.” (Self-Consciousness: The Spiritual Human Being, 1986, pp. 263-267)

The emphatic statement, “In 2,160 years the Sun has progressed from one Zodiacal sign into the next.”, was made on 29 Aug. 1923. (The Evolution of the World and of Humanity, 1989, pp. 188-189)

The first specific date of solar movement into zodiac signs I've seen occurred 1 Dec. 1923. “You know that on March 23, the Sun enters the Sign of the Fishes. I have told you before that the spring equinox is now in the Sign of the Fishes. The Sun remains in this Sign `til April 20, then passes into the Sign of the Ram . . . In the beginning of May the full force of the Ram is working; by the end of the month the Sun is already in the sign of the Bull.” (Beekeeping - Nine Lectures on Bees, 1964, pp. 37-38) All previous and subsequent quotes available to me show that the dates and zodiac signs are probably mistranscribed, as does the sense of the quote itself - the sun entering Pisces March 23 is already after the spring equinox.

On 20 Jan. 1924, we are back on familiar ground: “Now, you can look at the vernal point of the zodiac, where the sun rises every spring. This point is not stationary; it is advancing. In the Egyptian epoch, for example, it was in the constellation of Taurus. It has advanced through Taurus and Aries and is today in the constellation of Pisces; and it is still advancing..” (Anthroposophy and the Inner Life, 1994, pg. 29)

The last two references I have found include a description of the Platonic year on 17 Sept. 1924, and the following definite statement on 9 Sept. 1924: “If in the present epoch we look at the point in the heavens where the sun rises on the twenty-first of March, we find behind the sun the constellation of the Fishes (Pisces). The Sun has been rising in this particular constellation for hundreds of years, but always at a different point. Going back a few centuries we find that the point at which the sun rose in spring was still in the same constellation, but if we go back as far as the year 1200A.D., we find that the sun rose in the constellation of the Ram (Aries).” (The Evolution of the Earth and Man, 1987, pp. 155-164)

This concludes my survey of Dr. Steiner's evidence. It is clear that he does not relate the zodiac signs to any connect-the-dot patterns of stars. The zodiac signs represent relatively equal periods governed by the forces of twelve different choruses of spiritual beings behind the stars. These beings exist and continue to work beyond the physical existence of the planet and solar system itself. Their forces are mediated by the sun, both in the yearly passage through the seasons and in the Platonic year of the precession of the equinox, through 12 times 2,160 or 25,920 years.

The spring equinox is the great definer of the ages, and from the oft-repeated dates given by Steiner, we can calculate the approximate dates when the sun passes from one sign to another, throughout the year.

If we accept that the vernal equinox entered Pisces about 1413 A.D., then it has moved at a rate of about one degree (day) every seventy-two years for 584 years; slightly more than eight days past March 21. In its yearly round the sun now leaves Pisces about Mar. 29. If we take these dates as the midpoints of three-day gray areas or cusps, we can use Steiner's reported equal zodiacal ages (2,160 divided by 72 equals 30 days movement in precession) and extrapolate the following calendar for Steiner's zodiac signs:

Aries, beginning March 29

Taurus, April 29

Gemini, May 30

Cancer, June 29

Leo, July 29

Virgo, August 29

Libra, September 28

Scorpio, October 28

Sagittarius, November 28

Capricorn, December 28

Aquarius, January 27

Pisces, February 27


The stars the sun stands in front of during these dates are the zodiacal signs Dr. Steiner describes as representing beings and forces that essentially condition the nature of the sun, so that we can think of `Aries-sun', or `Leo-sun', etc. Readers familiar with any of the popularly employed zodiac sign definitions will at once notice both dramatic and subtle differences. However, we can only test the many facts Steiner gave regarding the zodiac if we know, from his own work collected and correlated, what zodiac he was talking about.
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Re: Spirit And Matter

Post  KapitanScarlet on Tue 14 Dec 2010, 13:13

As I awake, I am considering the parallels between the patterns of both politics and religion. The prevalent idea of religion today is monotheism. This reveals a blueprint on the human psyche to deduce all data unto an "ultimate" conclusion. Thus, the most popular dispute waged between the myriad conspiracy theorists is "my world-dominating elitist theory can beat up your world-dominating elitist theory".

But what if there really is no single group at the top of the food chain? What if the pyramid will ever remain flat on top while those of us along the bottom courses imagine with a certain clarity that the apex of the pyramid comes to a fine and exacting point?


This has become quite a digression from Steiner. My appologies. Needless to say, I don't think I'll be reading any more of him before bedtime. His ideas are very provoking and will require my full attention to grasp his truth. The division and distinction between "ages" can vary between scholars. I am unclear on Steiner's five epochs following Atlantis. A little help with the break-down of his timeline would be appreciated if you can site them for me please.

My own interpratation of the so called pyramid of power dynamic is that it is exactly as you say , the pyramid does have a flat top ...with many different people / groups there, with 4 sides of consciousness awareness
Then there is a fifth segment which is the apex at the top , often depicted as having a space between the flat top and the apex , to signify that this is where the consciousness enters into angelic / demonic psychic intelligences which is presumed to exist in the etheral realm

So the apex part signifies that power is controlled from the point of entry to the etheric psychic domain , whereby it filters down through the pyramid into what humans may recognise as sensical depending on their awareness status

The space between the flat top and the apex can only be "consciously" breached by esoteric understanding which i interpret as mysticism at the bottom of the apex base part, and allegory and metaphor at the tip of the pyramid flat top

Therefore the bridge between the apex etheral awareness intelligence and the flat-top human awareness consciousness part is bridged via the aspiring intellect through the dilution of mysticism into allegory and metaphor, after which that may then dissipate down through analogy and logic for more clarification

Every person has a differing degree of how they can comprehend the relationship between pure logic and pure mysticism , for example even a person labelled an idiot in society , whatever that may mean, is capable of accessing mystical knowledge but would not be capable of taking that knowledge and diluting it into more sensible understandings which could be taught or communicated to someone else

So this flat top on the pyramid, i see as is far as a person can reach using the momentum of educating the self , after which , they are sort of stuck there and awaiting further guidance so to speak, in that , at that point, they have to enter the world of esoterica or the occult in order to further their understanding of being which requires a knowledge of the mystical which is what i belive these secret societys are formed for, as a means to project the intellectual comprehension into the etheric world and come back with a higher sense

But as is known by legends, in that etheric psychic world , there exists the fluence of both benevolent and malevolent sources.

My feeling is that in the physical world, up to the flat top of the pyramid (symbolically portrayed) is that the activity of force (application of will) is required to ascend.

But once someone then reaches that plateau, there is a secret mirroring effect, in that force is no longer the key to access the etheral benevolent forces that may exist there, the key to access these benevolent forces then requires a polarity change in conscious intent from Force to Attraction

A person has to make themselves into a perfect vessel that attracts benevolent forces, in this manner of interpretation it can be imagined that the final key to higher knowledge cannot ever be gotten by force , it has to be aquired by attraction, always then leaving higher powers beyond the aggressor in human consciousness

Those whom continue to use force to try and further aquire higher etheric knowledge, using im sure some occult forms of rituals, do so by encountering malevolent intelligences posing as benevolent, and they sell their souls ...in the end,,,sort of like being led to water , knowing in their heart (attraction) that somethings deeply wrong, but because they are commited to the head(force) , they drink it and find themselves in the black lodge What a Face

Talking metaphorically off course Cool
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Re: Spirit And Matter

Post  quicksilvercrescendo on Tue 14 Dec 2010, 13:46

Quite interesting to me that Steiner has come up on the thread. I was just considering reading all of his published works from the first to his last. It has been said that of all the post-Blavatsky personalities that Steiner's is the most interesting and profound. He has been accused if interlacing his own Christian dogma into the work at times, but if you find this to be the case then you will know what to do with it in that context.

I actually know a farmer up the road who is schooled in Steiner's Biodynamic Farming methods. This man's father just passed away and this elder man was considered a one of the wisest men within the local farming community as he too had excellent instruction in Steiner's methods. Agricultural schools and the university would beg this man to speak and teach.

Dr. Steiner seldom reported the association of specific stars with zodiac signs. One of the few instances I have found occurred on 18 Dec. 1910: “Take, for instance, the seven holy Rishis. The symbol of the Initiation into the Sun-Mysteries is the picture of the sun in Taurus. When the Sun stands in the sign of Taurus the spectacle in the firmament reveals the mystery of the particular Initiation of the Rishis. This Initiation took effect through the seven personalities who were the seven holy Rishis. This is also expressed in the fact that the Pleiades, a cluster of seven stars, shine from the same region of the heavens. That is, moreover, the region where the whole solar system entered into the Universe to which we belong.” (Background to the Gospel of St. Mark, 1968, pp. 206-211)

This issue here is big in so many ways.

Kapis, I do highly recommend that you read over all of Wayne Herschel's websites and work.
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Re: Spirit And Matter

Post  KapitanScarlet on Wed 15 Dec 2010, 14:08

Dont know anything about herschel Qsc, but i will put him in my "toread" folder , any specific area of his you recommend ? as an extraction or quote
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Re: Spirit And Matter

Post  quicksilvercrescendo on Wed 15 Dec 2010, 23:17

nope...read all of it regarding the Pleiades and such. And the man-made earth structures with geometries that match star maps and the Cydonia complex on Mars.
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Re: Spirit And Matter

Post  quicksilvercrescendo on Thu 16 Dec 2010, 23:10

He discovered "star maps" in the layout of nearly every ancient civilization's civic constructions.

AND...those ancient earth layouts are built with the same geometry as the Cydonia Complex found on Mars.
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Re: Spirit And Matter

Post  KapitanScarlet on Fri 17 Dec 2010, 00:49

Bobdog wrote: I will try to get up to speed on his doctrine over the holiday so I might be able to contribute intelligently to any conversations about him,
I woulnt even pretend to be any expert on steiner , hes covered a huge area of work, i do have an interesting old book of steiners which i will look out tomorrow eve and see if i can extract anything of topicality
but I must admit that I can't keep up with the sheer volume of stuff you put up on the board. (I'm still contemplating that Golden Rule dialogue.)
I did not think that i put up that much, im just a part timer on the forum , but you came up with the golden rule aspect and there is plenty still to think about for me too, its just a question of time and inclination to do so (:

By the way, I'm traveling to Germany via Madrid for Christmas. It'll be my first experience in Europe and I'm eager to gain some new perspectives. Any recommendations? I saw one of your previous posts somewhere here and you were suggesting to Lada (I think) to check out the "Eldorado" in Berlin? Is that correct? I'll be staying in Frankfurt but I'm getting a train pass and I'm gonna go where ever I can as the time allows.

The Eldorado aspect was just regarding the exact location where Berlins Blue Steamy side was unravelling in the early 20th century, the place is now an organic foodstore which was amusing to me
Regarding fRankfurt , dont know if theres much there, although it is the financial centre of the reich, i spent about 22 hours there in the 03/04 new year turnover, but never set foot outside the flat that my "guide" was putting me up in , apart from onto a high balcony at midnight to look down on a bunch of screamin drunken germans (((:::
But Germany itself has a wealth of things to see, its only in the last month that ive been privy to a lot more of german architecture than i was aware of on the 3 occassions ive been there , thanks to the bbc running some really good programs about germany .
Contact mein friend and she may have some tips, if u can find her as shes vamoosed


You can listen to the first half of Herschel's radio interview "Hidden Records" on Veritas for free here:

http://www.veritasshow.com/veritasplayer.html

When the player opens, scroll down to interview #096

Ok thx for that

I'm inquiring with the members' board on that site about a curious thing I found regarding Herschel's book, which I was going to purchase from a link posted there. His book won the "Queen's Award for Enterprise" and I'm wondering if that's something one would want to be associated with.




The Queen's Awards for Enterprise
Introduction

The Queen's Awards for Enterprise are highly prestigious awards for outstanding achievement by businesses in Innovation, International Trade and Sustainable Development. The Queen's Award for Enterprise Promotion is awarded to individuals.
Please note that entry to the 2011 Queen's Awards is now closed. Winner's lists will be published on this site when they become available on 21 April 2011. You can contact the Queen's Awards to pre-register for notification of the 2012 awards by emailing info@queensawards.org.uk.
The awards are made annually by HM The Queen, and are only given for the highest levels of excellence demonstrated in each category. They are judged to a demanding level and winners receive a number of benefits and worldwide recognition. Previous winners have come from a diverse selection of business sectors and have included large and small businesses. Recipients of the individual award have been from varied social and professional backgrounds.
This guide explains why businesses and individuals should apply for an award. It describes the three business categories and individual award category, and gives information on eligibility, criteria and how you can apply. It also gives details of the benefits of applying for and winning an award, as well as explaining the judging processes.

I'm always initially suspicious when I see a crown on anything. In the interview on Veritas, he talks about how he's been the victim of subversion while trying to get his book published so I am a little confused about that. Wouldn't any secret organizations in league with the British Royalty want to oppress his research? So why would he win an award from "her majesty"? Maybe the associations I'm assuming between them is incorrect.

But his research (and book) is very clever. He discovered "star maps" in the layout of nearly every ancient civilization's civic constructions.

The queens award is a puzzling surprise, but the star map theory sounds interesting, what are his conclusions about that, previous alien visitatons i guess ?
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Re: Spirit And Matter

Post  quicksilvercrescendo on Sat 18 Dec 2010, 21:28

Or maybe QSC can tell us...

It's all right there on his websites and youtube videos.
More if you read his book.

What do you want me to do....copy and paste all that shit from there to here?
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Re: Spirit And Matter

Post  seraphim on Mon 20 Dec 2010, 06:17

The answer is supplied for Initiation-wisdom only through a very, very weighty fact, through an event which took place far over in Asia at the beginning of the third millennium of the pre-Christian era. Clairvoyant vision finds in looking back that an incarnation of a supersensible Being in a human being had taken place there, just as in the Event of Golgotha an incarnation of the supersensible Christ Being had taken place in the man Jesus of Nazareth. The incarnation that took place at the beginning of the third millennium B.C. is extraordinarily difficult to follow up, even with the science of seership, of initiation. It gave humanity something of immense brilliance, having an incisive effect. What it gave to humanity, in fact, was the primeval wisdom.

Viewed externally, one can say that it was a wisdom penetrating deep into reality; cold, based purely on ideas, permeated little by feeling. The actual inner nature of this wisdom can be judged only by going back to that incarnation which took place over in Asia at the beginning of the third pre-Christian millennium. It is revealed to the retrospective clairvoyant gaze that this was an actual human incarnation of the Luciferic Power.
Kapis, what a great example of the microcosmic and the macrocosmic and how they flowing into each other.
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Re: Spirit And Matter

Post  KapitanScarlet on Tue 21 Dec 2010, 01:07

The actual inner nature of this wisdom can be judged only by going back to that incarnation which took place over in Asia at the beginning of the third pre-Christian millennium. It is revealed to the retrospective clairvoyant gaze that this was an actual human incarnation of the Luciferic Power.

Im still musing over this part SEraphim What a Face
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Re: Spirit And Matter

Post  KapitanScarlet on Mon 27 Dec 2010, 00:14

I recommend the first 3 parts of the master key system that i linked to , it gives one of the best explanations of the relationship between the conscious mind and the subconscious mind, the solar plexus being the inner solar sun that emanates the mythical magnetic power when it is aroused in the correct manner

When a person energises this inner solar sun, they activate an energy in the psychic realm that can be felt by other people that engage with them , this is a true power that has heightened healing and creative energy within its transmission

The conscious mind is more important than anyone has ever stated, thus to be in control of ones own conscious mind and its relationship with ones subconscious mind, is a direct achievable target for dramatically improving ones state of being

But i can think of 3 obstacles that betray themselves through habit and fears that get in the way of achieving what appears to be a simple task.

What is allowed into the body
What is allowed to enter unfiltered into the mind
What may have been inherent in ones subconscious from genetic transportation and ignorant experiencial aquasitions

The conscious mind can clean up the subconscious mind, retrain it and produce a synergetic relationship which both enhances wisdom and health

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Re: Spirit And Matter

Post  KapitanScarlet on Mon 27 Dec 2010, 10:19

The Elements and Their Inhabitants
by Manly P. Hall, exerpted from “The Secret Teachings of All Ages”

GENERAL OBSERVATIONS

Certain of the ancients, differing with Paracelsus, shared the opinion that the elemental kingdoms were capable of waging war upon one another, and they recognized in the battlings of the elements disagreements among these kingdoms of Nature spirits. When lightning struck a rock and splintered it, they believed that the salamanders were attacking the gnomes. As they could not attack one another on the plane of their own peculiar etheric essences, owing to the fact that there was no vibratory correspondence between the four ethers of which these kingdoms are composed, they had to attack through a common denominator, namely, the material substance of the physical universe over which they had a certain amount of power.

Wars were also fought within the groups themselves; one army of gnomes would attack another army, and civil war would be rife among them. Philosophers of long ago solved the problems of Nature’s apparent inconsistencies by individualizing and personifying all its forces, crediting them with having temperaments not unlike the human and then expecting them to exhibit typical human inconsistencies. The four fixed signs of the zodiac were assigned to the four kingdoms of elementals. The gnomes were said to be of the nature of Taurus; the undines, of the nature of Scorpio; the salamanders exemplified the constitution of Leo; while the sylphs manipulated the emanations of Aquarius.

The Christian Church gathered all the elemental entities together under the title of demon. This is a misnomer with far-reaching consequences, for to the average mind the word demon means an evil thing, and the Nature spirits are essentially no more malevolent than are the minerals, plants, and animals. Many of the early Church Fathers asserted that they had met and debated with the elementals.

As already stated, the Nature spirits are without hope of immortality, although some philosophers have maintained that in isolated cases immortality was conferred upon them by adepts and initiates who understood certain subtle principles of the invisible world. As disintegration takes place in the physical world, so it takes place in the ethereal counterpart of physical substance. Under normal conditions at death, a Nature spirit is merely resolved back into the transparent primary essence from which it was originally individualized. Whatever evolutionary growth is made is recorded solely in the consciousness of that primary essence, or element, and not in the temporarily individualized entity of the elemental. Being without man’s compound organism and lacking his spiritual and intellectual vehicles, the Nature spirits are subhuman in their rational intelligence, but from their functions–limited to one element–has resulted a specialized type of intelligence far ahead of man in those lines of research peculiar to the element in which they exist.

The terms incubus and succubus have been applied indiscriminately by the Church Fathers to elementals. The incubus and succubus, however, are evil and unnatural creations, whereas elementals is a collective term for all the inhabitants of the four elemental essences. According to Paracelsus, the incubus and succubus (which are male and female respectively) are parasitical creatures subsisting upon the evil thoughts and emotions of the astral body. These terms are also applied to the superphysical organisms of sorcerers and black magicians. While these larvæ are in no sense imaginary beings, they are, nevertheless, the offspring of the imagination. By the ancient sages they were recognized as the invisible cause of vice because they hover in the ethers surrounding the morally weak and continually incite them to excesses of a degrading nature. For this reason they frequent the atmosphere of the dope den, the dive, and the brothel, where they attach themselves to those unfortunates who have given themselves up to iniquity. By permitting his senses to become deadened through indulgence in habit-forming drugs or alcoholic stimulants, the individual becomes temporarily en rapport with these denizens of the astral plane. The houris seen by the hasheesh or opium addict and the lurid monsters which torment the victim of delirium tremens are examples of submundane beings, visible only to those whose evil practices are the magnet for their attraction.

Differing widely from the elementals and also the incubus and succubus is the vampire, which is defined by Paracelsus as the astral body of a person either living or dead (usually the latter state). The vampire seeks to prolong existence upon the physical plane by robbing the living of their vital energies and misappropriating such energies to its own ends.

In his De Ente Spirituali Paracelsus writes thus of these malignant beings: “A healthy and pure person cannot become obsessed by them, because such Larvæ can only act upon men if the later make room for them in their minds. A healthy mind is a castle that cannot be invaded without the will of its master; but if they are allowed to enter, they excite the passions of men and women, they create cravings in them, they produce bad thoughts which act injuriously upon the brain; they sharpen the animal intellect and suffocate the moral sense. Evil spirits obsess only those human beings in whom the animal nature is predominating. Minds that are illuminated by the spirit of truth cannot be possessed; only those who are habitually guided by their own lower impulses may become subjected to their influences.” (See Paracelsus, by Franz Hartmann.)

A strange concept, and one somewhat at variance with the conventional, is that evolved by the Count de Gabalis concerning the immaculate conception, namely, that it represents the union of a human being with an elemental. Among the offspring of such unions he lists Hercules, Achilles, Æneas, Theseus, Melchizedek, the divine Plato, Apollonius of Tyana, and Merlin the Magician.

From sketch by Howard Wookey.

The sylphs were changeable entities, passing to and fro with the rapidity of lightning. They work through the gases and ethers of the earth and are kindly disposed toward human beings. They are nearly always represented as winged, sometimes as tiny cherubs and at other times as delicate fairies.
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Re: Spirit And Matter

Post  quicksilvercrescendo on Tue 28 Dec 2010, 23:58

Regarding that "Queen's Award" I mentioned in association with Wayne Herschel's book, I was incorrect. I mistakenly attributed it to his book, but it is actually in connection with one of his book distributors and has nothing to do with Herschel, perse.

And your opinion on Herchel's thesis...now that you have completely investigated his work?
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Re: Spirit And Matter

Post  KapitanScarlet on Wed 29 Dec 2010, 23:35

nice shiny new header. Which Cary Grant film is that from? Is that the mistaken identity of George Caplan (on the right), in the auction scene in North by Northwest?

No , that imade that had the subtitle, and the current image are both from the same film
A film called Last year in Marienbad, i just rewatched my dvd of it recently and i was looking for a fresh image .

I think the film is a great work of art in sublime cinematography
Regarding the plot / dialogue, it is like nothing anyone could imagine in regard to having formula or strict format or what is expected as perceptive plot sense
I would say that most people would not be able to watch it, but if you have an interest in the function of memory, in illusion, in delusion, in transcendent states, in dreams, in afterlifes etc then you could possibly extract something of value from the film .

Here is an interview with its director Alain Resnais whom has made some other interesting works, i really like the way he handled this interview

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