Musings On The Bible

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Musings On The Bible

Post  quicksilvercrescendo on Sun 10 Jan 2010, 19:57

Genesis...

1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Considering the great expanse that is the universe and all that is in it, the possible non-physical realm or realms that would include heaven and also the planet earth itself, I always felt this one-liner left me feeling a bit cheated regarding the Bible and its story.

As some space could have been reserved to perhaps elaborate a bit on something so vast and profound.

But there you go...Blam!...Splat!...There it is!
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Re: Musings On The Bible

Post  quicksilvercrescendo on Sun 10 Jan 2010, 20:04

2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Now in Genesis 1 God created the earth, but in Gen 2 the earth is without form, and void.
Well which one is it?
If you created the earth how can it be without form, and void?

I would assume the darkness upon the face of the deep would have to do with space, as the earth was created, but confusingly without form and void.

And The Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
When the book says the Spirit of God, rather than God, is it referring to a non-physical aspect of God v.s. his physical one?
As there seems to be a language of distinction being used here other than just God moved upon the face of the waters.

And what waters? Couldn't have been on the created earth that was without form and void. Because if it was void, there would be no waters to speak of. Or was this waters in space? Or do waters refer to something else than water that we are used to?
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Re: Musings On The Bible

Post  quicksilvercrescendo on Sun 10 Jan 2010, 20:08

3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Now it isn't until Gen 14 that the Bible states that God created the Sun and moon, yet light is created before the creation of the sun.
And day and night are also created and defined, yet the celestial orb of the Sun which provides light is not yet mentioned as having been created.

Are we to assume that this is not exactly a chronological telling of creation?
Because I was always under the impression it was chronological during the creation in Genesis.
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Re: Musings On The Bible

Post  quicksilvercrescendo on Sun 10 Jan 2010, 20:18

6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

9And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

11And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13And the evening and the morning were the third day.

14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

Water seems to be quite profound in these verses. And there seems to be a water of Heaven and a water of Earth formed and divided by a flat hemispheric expanse. Now, if physical, this would be the atmosphere. But that would make Heaven and Earth both physical to have physical separation of their shared waters.

The waters under heaven were gathered into one place allowing land to appear...earth and seas.

God then created plants...grass, herbs, trees.

Then he made the Sun and the Moon. Before he made the plants? Plants need sunlight to live, but the Sun was made afterward?
Seems to be a bit out of order...I mean, if I were designing life, its food source would be primary...no?
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Re: Musings On The Bible

Post  quicksilvercrescendo on Sun 10 Jan 2010, 20:21

20And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

21And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

22And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

23And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

This indicates all life came from water.
Evolution of land creatures from water creatures is clearly indicated twice.
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Re: Musings On The Bible

Post  quicksilvercrescendo on Sun 10 Jan 2010, 20:24

24And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

25And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

And it seems more evolved land creatures developed on land from the ones that developed from the sea.

I will pause here for a moment for the next verses begin with the creation of man and woman and will be more involved.


If anyone has any insight to my questions or comments up to this point, please feel free to comment.
My intent is to go orderly through Genesis and begin to examine the creation myth with some of the work of alternative researchers in relation to the supposed book of Truth...The Bible.
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Re: Musings On The Bible

Post  KapitanScarlet on Mon 11 Jan 2010, 01:04

The Ur Group spoke of the "knowledge of the waters" relating to the currents of influence in mans psychic experience

and this quote from budhist theorys
In budhism, this knowledge of the waters correwsponds to the realisation of samsaric consciousness and of the truth of no soul (annata)
Beyond the awareness of the unique life of an individual there is the awarenes of the trunk, of which this life is only a branch, the primordial force of the trunk is experienced
Moreover, what is experienced, is the unreality of the self, and of everything that resembles the self(this is the doctrine of annata)
To feel samsara and to feel oneselfin samsara is the presupposition, also in budhism, for the realization of that which is truly spiritual and transcendent.

The currents in the psychic experience , cravings, desires , needs etc are what lead to manifestations on the physical plain
So if the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters, may relate to a specific imprint of god that is a permanent resident in physical mans psychic world , or rather , a permanent resident in each physical individuals psychic world , (a hidden guide/impulse/intuition ) which would mean that this spirit of god root component if chased down to its manifested location , may reside in the dna of a man , also reproducing itself through every successful copulation, but the intensity of its awakened activity is in direct proportion to the relationship or knowledge of a mans consciousness to his psychic world (his inner reflective world) his knowledge of his waters

this does not explain the creation of the physical world, unless one can conceive that the physical world from the viewpoint of God is an encapsulated temporal illusion for which souls enter and undergo an ordeal in physical existence which often defies and opposes their own psychic interpretation of it , but it is how they deal with this "phenomena of opposition" that determines their own fate en route

BUt maybe GOds existance itself or a concept of it, is not quite possible from the present state of mans reason
If a soul has entered a testing ground, it makes absolute sense, that the soul will begin with a limited understanding , except that through the implanted spirit of god, there is always a vague reflection of familiarity at the perimeter of consciousness for certain experiences , and from its own endeavour, it must construct its own understanding of being which may change dramatically several times en route as more awareness is developed

At death, one reincarnates into a more advanced or reduced level of awareness if off course one never made it across the waters , then there would have to be an opposite of the crossing which would be the falling into the waters
Those who make it across the waters can decide to come back in as secret assists, but the language of assist is not always logical or sensical (hahahahahahaha) i heard a source laughing deep inside of me Very Happy

But what a great topic Qsc, i have got to look into the bible now as you and others post here

Genesis seems like a claptrap story to me , but i look forward to being adjusted in my understanding if some form of sensical comparisons or new insight comes from the thread

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Re: Musings On The Bible

Post  quicksilvercrescendo on Mon 11 Jan 2010, 12:01

26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

This completes Genesis 1.

31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness, and let THEM have dominion...

This is the passage where many have stated that God must be referring to something other than just itself to use the word..."US".
And that the image and likeness of man is according to "OUR"...a reference to the plural.

But verse 27 restates this and clears it up that it is singular.

There was a researcher that had examined the plural claim and he stated that in the Hebrew the US and OUR usage is to be interpreted as singular and not plural.
Mike Heiser...(I highly recommend this video presentation of his interpretation of scripture and I do believe his interpretation will refute the interpretations of Sitchin and Tsarion.) His work will also explain Genesis 6 and the Nephilim.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-W6c9a3ldQ&feature=PlayList&p=83E6F2A726D0ECA7&index=0&playnext=1

But also..."and let THEM have dominion"...is also a plural reference which must refer to Adam & Eve together, or the theory (Tsarion) that Adam could be a name for a race, in this case the plural would also be used. Or when God says let US make man...God does not say a man...but man as a species.

And based on verse 28...this is also cleared up...as it is applied to both Adam and Eve for them to be able to be fruitful and multiply.

So now Adam and Eve are "banging and doin' da' nasty" as it is directed by God for them to do so and multiply.
Which would mean that Adam's tool works as does Eve's plumbing and childbirth is now happening, or able to happen.

And supposedly all living things both animal and human only eat..."seed-bearing herbs and fruit".
This would imply that nothing exists that eats other animals or flesh.
And that, at least, humans eat nothing but seed-bearing herbs and fruits.

But earlier in Genesis, it was mentioned that God created whales. Whales don't eat herbs and fruits, some eat krill and others are carnivorous. But the Genesis passage here says the things that creepeth on the earth, which whales do not...but they swim in the sea.

So this would only apply to the land animals at the time not being carnivorous but only plant eaters. (The dietary directive will change for man, not once but even twice after this...later in the Bible.)

This ends Genesis 1. So let's pause here and examine Heiser's work cited above and exchange ideas.
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Re: Musings On The Bible

Post  seraphim on Tue 12 Jan 2010, 08:19

That is almost exactly what I recently found in the Koran, the God uses the word "We" alot. I was thinking awhile ago that this God was a group of Beings. I found some sayings in the Koran, quotes in purple:
Bible quote:
Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness, and let THEM have dominion..
"We created them (humanity) and endowed their limbs and joints with strength; but if We please We can replace them by other men."

"It was We that ordained death among you. Nothing can hinder Us from replacing you by others like yourselves or transforming you into beings you know nothing of."

"Did We not create you from an unworthy fluid, which We kept in a safe receptacle (the womb) for an appointed time? All this We did; how excellent is Our work!"


But also..."and let THEM have dominion"...is also a plural reference which must refer to Adam & Eve together, or the theory (Tsarion) that Adam could be a name for a race, in this case the plural would also be used. Or when God says let US make man...God does not say a man...but man as a species.
I found it odd too that one God would be calling itself “We” or “Us”.
So the "eve" race could have been the genetically manipulated ones made weaker?
Was "Adam" the single soul and "Eve" it's mate, just as in the Bible?
"Men have authority over women becauses Allah has made the one superior over the other, and because they spend thier wealth to contain them."

"Allah seeks to forgive you, but those who follow their own appetites wish to see you far astray. Allah would lighten your burdens, for man was created weak."

"Men, have fear of your Lord, who created you from a single soul. From that soul He created its mate, and through them He bestrewed the earth with countless men and women."
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Re: Musings On The Bible

Post  seraphim on Tue 12 Jan 2010, 08:36

Kapis as for the water......
from the Koran "Are the disbelievers unaware that the heavens and the earth were one solid mass which We tore asunder, and that we made every living thing out of water?”

this does not explain the creation of the physical world, unless one can conceive that the physical world from the viewpoint of God is an encapsulated temporal illusion for which souls enter and undergo an ordeal in physical existence which often defies and opposes their own psychic interpretation of it , but it is how they deal with this "phenomena of opposition" that determines their own fate en route
BUt maybe GOds existance itself or a concept of it, is not quite possible from the present state of mans reason

Because of the limited consciousness maybe one has to be in a certain state of mind to comprehend.

Forgot to add this but I found a very interesting quote that also may confirm this God was a group of Beings.
"Before him Noah invoked Us and We heard his prayer. We saved him and all his kinsfolk from the great calamity."
I just read a new finding of a scroll on Noah’s Ark possibly. And the “Us” or “We” who saved Noah are called the Enki or Enoch. Will find the link.
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Re: Musings On The Bible

Post  KapitanScarlet on Tue 12 Jan 2010, 14:18

From those opening bursts of God Dictate , lookin from a purely material interpretation ,
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
It would seem that the "waters" are the blank canvas
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
and as you say, light appears before the sun moon and stars

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
So now one assumes the Global earth is the firmament created in the midst of the "waters" (universe / blank canvas)

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Thank you God for the confirmation , that the firmament is heaven

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
Now as you questioned QSc, gOds not making "logical sense", the firmament above was created between the waters , which suggested it was the globe in the universel waters , but now god is talking about inside the globe having waters called the conventiona sea water and the earth is now confirmed as dry land

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide
Hey God dude, did u forget u already did that in 3 above without the disco balls and spotlights ?

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

yeah so is it i us or them , this God author and creator ?

bUt who is the author of this genesis , saome say moses was dictated by "God"
Others say a collection of earth dwellers wrote it

Found this link regarding some numerological letter encodings and they decree it must have been GOd or some fortune telling divination that compiled genesis because of the mathematical interpretations they have extracted from its wordings , but be warned, the only people i ever heard addressing someone as FRiend with the capital F was the quakers

http://www.av1611.org/genesis.html

Be scared ... be very very scared Very Happy

Conclusion so far ,for me is the first section does not make sense logically nor even metaphysically as of yet, but i am ready to be adjusted in my opinion should further enlightenments be brought to the table of perception

I am currently looking into a little commentary regarding 2immortality" relating to that "knowledge of the waters " talked about

SEraphim, yeah wes and thems and a lot of tyranical fear-generating language is apparent as a corelation between different creeds


Footnote - but the first section "would" makes sense to a "Conditioned persona" because they have been "subliminally" (blessed ?) emotionally primed to accept the message without corelation of the details through their own personal intellect to confirm theirjustification of theor beleif


Immortality - Heres one for the sultans of the intellect Cool

"kNowledge of the waters " Lets say as some have , that deep inside mans or womans psychic imprint lie 2 components
There is the consciousness, but there is also something more , and that more is the eternal soul , which is neither defined as evil or good, it just is , and its imprint protrudes into all consciousness

So the learned man realises that there is his will , his consciousness, but also something else that acts through him, independent of his will , the eternal soul, its actions can be observed and recognised by the occult adepts
So the mans consciousness can be thought of as his spirit which acts through his psyche and controls his body to an extent
There is also in there, a portion of the eternal soul , a branch from the main treetrunk which also expresses through his psyche and has affect on his body

Now when a man dies, he may hope for reincarnation , he has been a good boy, he can at least hope for that or even go to heaven
But what if what happens at death, is directly relative to how ones consciousness has or has not developed

When the physical body dies, it gives itself up as a physical corpse which then slowly but surely decays
Now at this moment , it has also been proposed, that the psychic body, mans consciousness gives itself up also as a psychic imprint from inertia and it has a finite timespan to continue or not to do so

Now some minds beleive that at that moment, if the consciousness which has also been defined as the individual spirit has not been sufficiently prepared, then what happens , is that the consciousness identity is confronted by all sorts of parasitical entitys that try to claim its spirit for their own further service which may include a reincarnation with a certain weight on their shoulders , to do their bidding on the physical plain

NOw for the conscioisness that has been occulty activated and initiated into higher knowledge , at DEath, this personality / consciousness, has developed the "nous" to defy the parasites that confront it and it actually actively attaches itself onto the eternal soul trunk ,and then pulls a piece of eternal soul under it , now like a horse rider , it stakes its claim and takes its seat in the eternal realm of the supernatural, it has become a conscious entity with personal direction in the eternal realm. FRom there, it gravitates to its current reference point in the higher dimensions of sensual residence and makes its effects on the earthly plain once more

Now this knowledge of the waters, cannot be reasoned only, requires the five langiages of interpretation / perception to gain insight, LOgic, Analogy, Metaphor, Allegory , mystic

NOw if gEnesis itself were a passage illustrating "knowledge of the waters" which it does begin with a hint too, then these 5 angles of perception may be required to truly cut its meat

Sharpen your swords then "Friends" (quaker talk) Wheres the katana TG Question

Further footnote - theres written somewhere biblical , that GOds word has the power to tear a spirit from a soul or something like that, cant remember where
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Re: Musings On The Bible

Post  seraphim on Tue 12 Jan 2010, 21:14

"We made the flood a sign: but will any take heed? I warned them, and then how stern was my punishment!"

"When the Flood rose high We carried you (mankind) in the floating Ark, making the event a warning, so that all attentive ears might heed it."


According to new evidence, the ark wasn't a pointy-prowed vessel, but a giant round raft.

This ship shape discovery was made by Irving Finkel, an expert in ancient Mesopotamia (now Iraq) at London's British Museum. While translating a 3,700-year-old clay tablet inscribed with Babylonian cuneiform script
The hero of the newly translated tablet – which is slightly bigger than a cell phone, and is inscribed with 60 lines of cuneiform text – isn't Noah, but a possible historical predecessor named Atram-Hasi. It begins with a mischievous Babylonian god named Enki telling the wise, kind and holy Atram-Hasi how to escape a great deluge planned by his rival deities. (They were apparently fed up with noisy humans, who interfered with their sleep.)

"Wall, wall! Reed wall, reed wall!" says Enki. "Atram-Hasis, pay heed to my advice, that you may live forever! Destroy your house, build a boat; despise possessions and save life! Draw out the boat that you will built with a circular design; Let its length and breadth be the same."

http://www.sphere.com/article/noahs-ark-was-a-circular-raft-ancient-tablet-reveals/19309746?icid=main
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Re: Musings On The Bible

Post  seraphim on Tue 12 Jan 2010, 21:19

Kapis wrote:
NOw for the conscioisness that has been occulty activated and initiated into higher knowledge , at DEath, this personality / consciousness, has developed the "nous" to defy the parasites that confront it and it actually actively attaches itself onto the eternal soul trunk ,and then pulls a piece of eternal soul under it , now like a horse rider , it stakes its claim and takes its seat in the eternal realm of the supernatural, it has become a conscious entity with personal direction in the eternal realm. FRom there, it gravitates to its current reference point in the higher dimensions of sensual residence and makes its effects on the earthly plain once more

Now this knowledge of the waters, cannot be reasoned only, requires the five langiages of interpretation / perception to gain insight, LOgic, Analogy, Metaphor, Allegory , mystic

NOw if gEnesis itself were a passage illustrating "knowledge of the waters" which it does begin with a hint too, then these 5 angles of perception may be required to truly cut its meat
That's very interesting. Could the waters be the sea of consciousness of all humans or is it the different realms out there. If consciousness creates, it is a canvas, but the God calls it water. Or the consciousness creates using water or what's in the realms or knowledge of the different ones?

Haudenosaunee , I read that those unbelievably heavy structures of ancient times were moved using vibrational tone. If one has the right sound or mantra they can move anything. The God in the Koran also talks
about a 'trumpet', not His voice, but a sound that can destroy everything. Chanting is a very powerful tool.
"When the Trumpet sounds a single blast; when earth with all its mountains is raised high and with one mighty crash is shattered into dust-on that day the Dread Event will come to pass.

Rainyday a chilling One for you......
"Know that the life of this world is but a sport and a pastime, a show and an empty vuant among you, a quest for greater riches and more children. It is like the plants that flourish after rain: the husbandman rejoices to see them grow; but then they wither and turn yellow, soon becoming worthless stubble. In the life to come a woeful punishment awaits you-or the forgiveness of Allah and His pleasure. The life of this world
is but a vain provision."


"Remember the name of your Lord and dedicate yourself to Him utterly. He is the Lord of the East and the West: there is no God but Him. Accept Him for your Protector."
This is a third person talking! When only the God of the Koran should be talking singular about himself. Someone is talking about this God. And this God only a Lord of a specific realm, the East or West?

This is too fascinating, I'll stop quoting from the other Bible, the Koran okay.
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Re: Musings On The Bible

Post  quicksilvercrescendo on Wed 13 Jan 2010, 17:31

This is too fascinating, I'll stop quoting from the other Bible, the Koran okay.
No...don't stop doing that. Parallels with the Koran's version of the creation myth was going to be my next step in the analysis. As it provides a very interesting addition to the tale.
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Re: Musings On The Bible

Post  seraphim on Wed 13 Jan 2010, 21:17

Great, I wanted to get other creation myths or stories and compare as well.

The Enûma Eliš is the Babylonian creation myth (named for its incipit). It was recovered by Henry Layard in 1849 (in fragmentary form) in the ruined library of Ashurbanipal at Nineveh (Mosul, Iraq), and published by George Smith in 1876.[1]

The Enuma Elish has about a thousand lines and is recorded in Old Babylonian on seven clay tablets, each holding between 115 and 170 lines of text. The majority of Tablet V has never been recovered, but aside from this lacuna the text is almost complete. A duplicate copy of Tablet V has been found in Sultantepe, ancient Huzirina, located near the modern town of Şanlıurfa in Turkey.

This epic is one of the most important sources for understanding the Babylonian worldview, centered on the supremacy of Marduk and the creation of mankind for the service of the gods. Its primary original purpose, however, is not an exposition of theology or theogony, but the elevation of Marduk, the chief god of Babylon, above other Mesopotamian gods.

The Enûma Elish exists in various copies from Babylonia and Assyria. The version from Ashurbanipal's library dates to the 7th century BC. The story itself probably dates to the 18th century BC, the time when the god Marduk seems to have achieved a prominent status, although some scholars give it a later date (14th to 12th centuries BC.)
the translation:
When on high heaven was not named,
And the earth beneath did not yet bear a name,
And the primeval Apsû, who begat them,
And chaos, Tiamat, the mother of them both,
Their waters were mingled together,
And no field was formed, no marsh was to be seen;
When of the gods none had been called into being

The epic names two primeval gods: Apsu, the fresh water, and Tiamat, the salt water. Several other gods are created (Ea and his brothers) who reside in Tiamat's vast body. They make so much noise that it annoys Tiamat and Apsu greatly. Apsu wishes to kill the young gods, but Tiamat disagrees. The vizier, Mummu, agrees with Apsu's plan to destroy them. Tiamat, in order to stop this from occurring, warns Ea (Nudimmud), the most powerful of the gods. Ea, uses magic to put Apsu into a coma, then kills him, and shuts Mummu out. Ea then becomes the chief god, and along with his consort Damkina, has a son, Marduk, greater still than himself. Marduk is given wind to play with and he uses it to make dust storms and tornadoes. This disrupts Tiamat's great body and causes the gods still residing inside her to be unable to sleep.
From first post:
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-69604.64.html
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Re: Musings On The Bible

Post  seraphim on Wed 13 Jan 2010, 21:20

Found Enki and the waters again! I was thinking if the waters were Spirits. The God in the bible was using Spirits (water) as something to create through. But this below talks of something different.
Abyss = Abzu
Many scholars have translated the word "Abyss" to mean, a deep body of water. Likewise, assyriologists assume the Sumerian "Abzu" is a mythological deep body of fresh water, an underground water source.
However, considering the ways in which both the Abyss and Abzu are described in ancient texts and depicted on cylinder seals, it's highly unlikely that any such translation is completely revealing or entirely accurate. In this book, I will describe how and why such translations are incorrect and provide a feasible set of alternative viewpoints for your consideration.

According to biblical texts, there's a hidden door to the "Abyss" and "Bottomless Pit" in the vicinity of the Euphrates river, a star gate of sorts. It has been there, buried under the ruins of the ancient Mesopotamian city of Eridu, for thousands of years. [1]
It's my contention, that this Abyss mentioned in the bible, is also referred to in Sumerian texts as the "Abzu," and is associated with a Sumerian God known as "Enki-Ea."

The Abzu or Engur, is further described as a doorway from which Enki-Ea arrived on the Earth and over which he built the Temple of E.ABZU at Eridu, to facilitate its usage. Yes, you heard me right: usage. But to what end would he be using it? Certainly not for fresh water when the Euphrates was close at hand and abundantly fresh. If this "Abzu" was also the doorway from his "land" to the Earth, in what fashion would he be using it then? How did it function and just where exactly is his "land?" [2]

Stranger still, in the biblical texts, the Abyss (Abzu) is "opened" with a key and locked with a key. If this Abyss were a literal body of water, how would one go about unlocking and locking it with a key? Is it all a metaphor for some unseen spiritual dimension with a spiritual, not literal, key?
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sumer_anunnaki/anunnaki/anu_38.htm
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Re: Musings On The Bible

Post  KapitanScarlet on Wed 13 Jan 2010, 23:30

thx Haud

Im still splashing around in the waters...you mentioned an interesting term there seraphim, The abyss (not to mention the subject matter of camerons film)

The abyss is highlighted by crowley and other ancient magicians as an obstacle in occult progression
It may relate to stubborn conditioned aspect of the persona that must be transcended in order to come out of oneself , even be borne again from a new understanding of being, it is with this expanded bandwidth of understanding of being, that allows more an more of the mysteries of being to begin to take sense for that self including the mystery of creation

We are looking at 2 plains of approach of which the human can engage in both
The physical world and the apparent universe outside of this earth which is documented in a small part by scientists of which everyone beleives exactly as they say
I mean if you look up at the sky and see a sun ball a moon adjusting ball and lots of strange star lights that all move around, its a pretty eerie scenario, so a certain pattern of understanding has been developed by humans over the years that illustrates that there is a certain order of movement going on in the heavens above , and we are supposed to take it as a fact that if you can somehow get up there, these things you see are bigger and further away than you could ever imagine , although for anyone who has not been up there, it could all just as well be an illusion

The inner psychic world has even less understanding and yet humankind walks around with the arrogance that it knows exactly what is going on in there .

And then there is a direct relationship between the inner psychic realm and the outer physical realm and vice versa

My understanding is that there is something else in consciousness apart from the conscious self , that reveals its "activity" through in-lightenment or reflective corelations using the physical world as a mirror, but each persona has to find their own connection and dialogue with that possibility

So where is this God or Alien or dEmons or DEvils , creators and destroyers , i think their hiding in the last place humankind would ever think of looking for them, in their own psyches.

An arm moves because it is directed to do so
A wirld is constructed because it is directed to do so

Maybe all will wake up in their avatar projection machines soon, but then keep waking up in an infinite series of layers , a hall of mirrors , the reflection cannot be separated fro the source

ok i got a better explanation than the old testament , the Krell theory

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Re: Musings On The Bible

Post  KapitanScarlet on Thu 14 Jan 2010, 20:20

Some excerpts here from a book on the teachings of Jesus by Dr.Vladimir Antonov
The nature of God = Consciousness

It is appropriate to discuss here the psychology of sex (gender).

To start with, what is the sex of God?

If one pictures Him as an old man sitting on a cloud and says: “This is your God-the-Father, worship Him!”, then, of course, He is of male sex, and He may even wear beard. And certain category of people of certain evolutionary age will worship such an icon and believe that God is a man. This happened in Russia.

Jesus also called Him the Father, i.e. in the masculine gender. But it is in the Judaic tradition that God is depicted as the Father.

But in reality, He is equally Mother and Father. That is, He has no sex. For He is not a human but the Universal Primordial Consciousness.

And can spirits be of certain sex?

Spirits have no body to which sex is peculiar, yet they retain the self-perception which they had in the last incarnation until the next one. They may even retain the appearance they accustomed to. “The forms of… spirits include male ones and female ones,” wrote apostle Philip (The Gospel of Philip, 61).
How men and Women can benefit each other in relating
A mature woman is happy to give to men her harmony, tenderness, beauty, wanting to help by “ennobling” them, bringing closer to her ideal, sometimes by sacrificing herself… And mature and full-fledged men also are ready to lead women in order to teach them what they have learned… In this way, helping each other, teaching each other what he/she needs to learn, they can go together to the common Goal — to the Perfection.

Jesus said, addressing men:

“Respect her, uphold her. In acting thus you will win her love… and will find favor in the sight of God…

“In the same way, love your wives and respect them; for they will be mothers tomorrow, and each later on the ancestress of a race.

“Be lenient toward woman. Her love ennobles man, softens his hardened heart, tames the brute in him, and makes of him a lamb.

“The wife and the mother are the inappreciable treasures given unto you by God. They are the fairest ornaments of existence, and of them shall be born all the inhabitants of the world.

“Even as God… separated the light from the darkness and the land from the waters, woman possesses the divine faculty of separating in a man good intentions from evil thoughts.

Jesus contradicting the apostle Paul in the value of the feminine
… Apostle Paul infused the spirit of male arrogance into the New Testament: we discussed above that he transformed not all his aspects at once. In particular, he wrote:

“Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. … I do not allow a woman to teach, or to exercise authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve…” (1 Tim 2:11-13).

“Let your women be silent in the churches; for it is not permitted to them to speak, but to be in subjection… for it is a shame for a woman to speak in a church.” (1 Cor 14:34-35).

“Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands, as to the Lord, for the husband is the head of the wife…” (Eph 5:22).

“Judge among yourselves: is it right that a woman pray to God unveiled?” (1 Cor 11:13).

But the attitude of Jesus was different:

“Simon Peter said to them, ‘Make Mary leave us, for females don’t deserve the (True) Life.’ Jesus said, ‘Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.’” (The Gospel of Thomas, 114).

A man going to the Perfection has to supplement himself with femininity — the best of qualities that the best women possess. A woman going to the Perfection has to supplement herself with masculinity — the best qualities that the best men possess. As a result, both the man and the woman forget about the sex of their current bodies and become pure consciousnesses aspiring for Mergence with the Consciousness of the Creator. “… When you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, then you will enter the Kingdom (of the Father).” (The Gospel of Thomas, 22).
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Re: Musings On The Bible

Post  quicksilvercrescendo on Sun 17 Jan 2010, 08:17

Origins of Judaism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The origins of Judaism are split into two views - the "traditional" view and the "critical" view. The traditional view is that at its core, the Tanakh is an account of the Israelites' relationship with God from their earliest history until the building of the Second Temple (c. 535 BCE). Critical scholars reject the claim that sacred texts, including the Tanakh were dictated by God; some reject the claim that they were divinely inspired. Instead, they see these texts as authored by humans and meaningful in specific historical and cultural contexts.

Traditional view

The traditional view is that at its core, the Tanakh is an account of the Israelites' relationship with God from their earliest history until the building of the Second Temple (c. 535 BCE). This relationship is often a contentious one, as the Israelites struggle with their faith in God and attraction to other gods. Among the larger-than-life figures we meet in the Bible are the Patriarchs—Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who wrestled with their beliefs —- and Moses, who led the Israelites out of Egypt.

Abraham, hailed as the first Hebrew and the father of the Jewish people, rejected the idolatry that he saw around him and embraced monotheism. As a reward for this act of faith in one God, he was promised many offspring: "Look now toward heaven and count the stars/So shall be your progeny." (Genesis 15:5) Abraham's first child was Ishmael and his second son was Isaac, whom God said would continue Abraham's work and inherit the Land of Israel (then called Canaan), after having been exiled and redeemed. God sent the patriarch Jacob and his children to Egypt, where after many generations they became enslaved. God later commanded Moses to redeem the Israelites from slavery, leading to the Exodus from Egypt. The Israelites gathered at Mount Sinai in 1313 BCE (Jewish Year 2448) and received the Torah - the five books of Moses: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. These books, together with Nevi'im and Ketuvim are known as Torah Shebikhtav: literally the "Written Torah", as opposed to the Oral Torah, which refers to the Mishna and the Talmud. Eventually, God led them to the land of Israel.

God designated the descendants of Aaron, Moses' brother, to be a priestly class within the Israelite community. They first officiated in the tabernacle (a portable house of worship), and later their descendants were in charge of worship in the Temple in Jerusalem.

Once the Israelites had settled in the land of Israel, the tabernacle was planted in the city of Shiloh for over 300 years during which time God provided great men, and occasionally women, to rally the nation against attacking enemies, some of which were sent by God as a punishment for the sins of the people. This is described in the Book of Joshua and the Book of Judges. As time went on, the spiritual level of the nation declined to the point that God allowed the Philistines to capture the tabernacle in Shiloh.

The people of Israel then told Samuel the prophet that they had reached the point where they needed to be governed by a permanent king, as were other nations, as described in the Books of Samuel. Samuel grudgingly acceded to this request and appointed Saul, a great but very humble man, to be their King. When the people pressured Saul into going against a command conveyed to him by Samuel, God told Samuel to appoint David in his stead.

Once King David was established, he told the prophet Nathan that he would like to build a permanent temple, and as a reward for his actions, God promised David that he would allow his son to build the temple and the throne would never depart from his children (David himself was not allowed to build the temple because he had been involved in many wars, making it inappropriate for him to build a temple representing peace). As a result, it was David's son Solomon who built the first permanent temple according to God's will, in Jerusalem, as described in the Books of Kings.
The Western Wall in Jerusalem is a remnant of the wall encircling the Second Temple. The Temple Mount is the holiest site in Judaism.

Rabbinic tradition holds that the details and interpretation of the law, which are called the Oral Torah or oral law, were originally an unwritten tradition based upon what God told Moses on Mount Sinai. However, as the persecutions of the Jews increased and the details were in danger of being forgotten, these oral laws were recorded by Rabbi Judah haNasi (Judah the Prince) in the Mishnah, redacted circa 200 CE. The Talmud was a compilation of both the Mishnah and the Gemara, rabbinic commentaries redacted over the next three centuries. The Gemara originated in two major centers of Jewish scholarship, Palestine and Babylonia. Correspondingly, two bodies of analysis developed, and two works of Talmud were created. The older compilation is called the Jerusalem Talmud. It was compiled sometime during the fourth century in Israel. The Babylonian Talmud was compiled from discussions in the houses of study by the scholars Ravina I, Ravina II, and Rav Ashi by 500 C.E., although it continued to be edited later.

Critical view
Ancient Semitic religion

Critical scholars (who may or may not be observant Jews), reject the claim that sacred texts, including the Hebrew Bible were dictated by God; some reject the claim that they were divinely inspired. Instead, they see these texts as authored by humans and meaningful in specific historical and cultural contexts. Many of these scholars accept the general principles of the documentary hypothesis and suggest that the Torah consists of a variety of inconsistent texts edited together in a way that calls attention to divergent accounts.

These scholars have various theories concerning the origins of the Israelites and Israelite religion. Most agree that the people who formed the nation of Israel during the First Temple era had origins in Mesopotamia and in Egypt, although some question whether any or all of their ancestors had been slaves in Egypt. Many suggest that during the First Temple period, the people of Israel were henotheists, that is, they believed that each nation had its own god, but that their god was superior to other gods. Some suggest that strict monotheism developed during the Babylonian Exile, perhaps in reaction to Zoroastrian dualism.

In this view, it was only by the Hellenic period that most Jews came to believe that their god was the only god (and thus, the god of everyone), and that the record of his revelation (the Torah) contained within it universal truths. This attitude reflected a growing Gentile interest in Judaism (some Greeks and Romans considered the Jews a most "philosophical" people because of their belief in a god that cannot be represented visually), and growing Jewish interest in Greek philosophy, which sought to establish universal truths, thus leading - potentially - to the idea of monotheism, at least in the sense that "all gods are one". It was also at this time that the notion of a clearly bounded Jewish nation identical with the Jewish religion formed. According to one scholar, the clash between the early Christians and Pharisees that ultimately led to the birth of the Christian religion and Rabbinic Judaism reflected the struggle by Jews to reconcile their claims to national particularism and theological universalism.

According to Prof. Ze'ev Herzog of Tel Aviv University, monotheism, as a state religion, is probably "an innovation of the period of the Kingdom of Judea, following the destruction of the Kingdom of Israel." Herzog states that "The question about the date at which monotheism was adopted by the kingdoms of Israel and Judea arose with the discovery of inscriptions in ancient Hebrew that mention a pair of gods: Jehovah and his Asherah. At two sites, Kuntiliet Ajrud in the southwestern part of the Negev hill region, and at Khirbet el-Kom in the Judea piedmont, Hebrew inscriptions have been found that mention "Jehovah and his Asherah", "Jehovah Shomron and his Asherah, "Jehovah Teman and his Asherah". The authors were familiar with a pair of gods, Jehovah and his consort Asherah, and send blessings in the couple's name."[

Canaanite influence

The origins of Yahweh himself may be rooted in earlier Canaanite religion, which was centered on a pantheon of gods much like the Greek pantheon. Ba’al is the most recognized of this pantheon, mentioned over sixty times in the Bible. Ba’al was the storm-god and the god of fertility to whom worship is repeatedly forbidden in the Tanakh. In a society focused on survival, fertility represented the ultimate good. He was not, however, the head of the pantheon. That title belonged to El, the Compassionate. According to a theory originally posited by Mendenhall, a group of oppressed and self-marginalized people, the ‘apiru (a term for people who stood outside the established order, also possibly the origin of the word Hebrew) began to worship El as their primary deity.

The worship of the god known as Yahweh, not originally a Canaanite god, was probably developed in south of the Levantine region, in Midian and brought to the region of the Levant by a group of nomads from the south (slaves from Egypt, according to biblical tradition). The foreign god Yahweh is believed to have become amalgamated with the native god El and taken on many of his characteristics: an aged god; a wise god; even the creator god. As further evidence for the amalgamation, the Tanakh uses the word “El” for God. Notably, the Priestly source uses the term “El-Shaddai” for God. El-Shaddai most likely means “El, the mountain one,” in reference to El’s terrestrial dwelling.

Israel as a new, established ethnic group is generally thought to have consolidated in the twelfth century BCE, although some archaeologists, notably Israel Finkelstein, reject the claim that Israel was a coalition of oppressed peoples, arguing that the emergence of the Jewish people as a distinct ethnos did not occur until the ninth or eighth century BCE.

Eventually, Judaism dropped all associations with other gods and goddesses of the Canaanite pantheon and become monotheistic. When exactly this occurred, however, is also debated. Plausible cases have been made for the continued worship, or veneration, of Asherah by the Israelites, as Yahweh’s consort, well after the amalgamation of Yahweh and El and the official orthodoxy of that preached Yahweh-alone. Asherah, El’s consort in the Canaanite pantheon, is mentioned over forty times in the Tanakh, usually within the context of a condemnation of the worship of her or the use of her cult symbol, believed to be that of a stylized tree. Not quite a graven image, it is believed to have been generally-tolerated (amongst the people if not the official orthodoxy) as a common tool of worship among Israelite women.

Inscriptions from Kuntillet‘Ajurd and Khirbet el-Qom refer to “Yahweh and his Asherah”. It is debated whether the inscriptions refer to Asherah the goddess or “the Asherah,” a symbol of Asherah’s cult. In either case, Yahweh is undoubtedly associated with Asherah. Just as Yahweh took up many traits of El’s; it is perceived as likely that he also took up El’s consort.

A likely influence on the final purge of Asherah and all Canaanite gods from Israelite religion was Josiah’s reformation, believed to have taken place in 621 BCE.
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Re: Musings On The Bible

Post  seraphim on Mon 18 Jan 2010, 05:16

Haven't found a decent site for the Hopi creation myth, I mean legends. Got this from the Book of the Hopi. By the way the Natives get upset when one calls what they have to say myths, they are real to them.

The first world was Tokpela [endless space]. But first, they say, there was only the Creator, Taiowa. All else was endless space. There was no beginning and no end, no time, no shape, no life. Just an immeasurable void that had its beginning and end, time, shape and life in the mind of Taiowa the Creator. Then he, the infinite, conceived the finite. First he created Sotuknang to make it manifest, saying to him, "I have created you, the first power and instrument as a person, to carry out my plan for life in endless space I am your Uncle. You are my Nephew.
Go now and lay out these universes in proper order so they may work harmoniousy with one another according to my plan." Sotuknang did as he was commanded. From endless space he gathered that which was to be manifest as solid substance, molded it into forms and arranged them into nine universal kingdoms: one for Taiowa the Creator, one for himself, and seven universes for the life to come. Finishing this, Sotuknang went to Taiowa and asked, "Is this according to your plan?"

"It is very good," said Taiowa. "Now I want you to do the same thing with the waters. Place them on the surfaces of these universes so they will be divided equally among all and each." So Sotuknang gathered from endless space that which was to be manifest as the waters and placed them on the universes so that each would be half solid and half water. Going now to Taiowa, he said, " I want you to see the work I have done and if it pleases you."
"It is very good," said Taiowa. "The next thing now is to put the forces of air into peaceful movement about all." This Sotuknang did. From endless space he gathered that which was to be manifest as the airs, make them into great forces, and arranged them into gentle ordered movements around each universe.
Taiowa was pleased. "You have done a great work according to my plan, Nephew. You have created the universes and made them manifest in solids, waters, and winds, and put them in their proper places. But your work is not yet finished. Now you must create life and its movement to complete the four parts, Tuwaquachi, of my universal plan."

I find it amazing an all powerful Creator (or at least the one in the Bible) needs another Being or to work through it in order to create. The Creator had something else do the creating. Just as a person has to create through the all powerful consciousness (super) and other things. So maybe there is something about the psyche that is all powerful and is the Creator?

The creation Story goes on from there and we are now in the fourth world going into the fifth world. I found an interesting part in the third world, where there could have been use of the flying saucer.
In the third world, Kuskurza, people spread out, multiplied, and continued their progress on the Road to Life. In the First World they lived simply with the animals. In the Second World they had developed handicrafts, homes, and villages. In the Third World they multiplied in such numbers and advanced so rapidly that they created big cities, countries, a whole civilization. (The days of Atlantis? )

This made it difficult for them to conform to the plan of Creation and to sing praises to Taiowa and Sotuknang. More amd more of them became wholly occupied with thier own earthly plans. Some of them of course, retained the wisdom granted them upon their Emergence. With this wisdom they understood that the farther they proceeded on the Road of Life and the more they developed, the harder it was. That was why their world was destroyed every so often to give them a fresh start. They were especially concerned
because so many people were using their reproductive power in wicked ways.

So the people with wisdom sang louder and longer their praises to the Creator from the tops of their hills. The other people hardly heard them. Under the leadership of the Bow Clan (mysteriously a clan that survived the shift into the next world, the people in the next world were amazed how they got into the next world, either from the second to the third or the third to the fourth world, and said they just appeared out of nowhere and kept their knowledge) they began to use their creative power in another evil and destructive way. Perhaps this was caused by that wicked woman (she was known throughout the world for her wickedness) But some of them made a patuwvota (shield made of hide) and with their creative power made it fly through the air. On this many of the people flew to a big city, attacked it, and returned so fast no one knew where they came from. Soon the people of many cities and countries were making patuwvotas an flying on them to attack one another. So corruption and war came to the Third World as it had to the others.
Oh and the swastika was derived from the natives! Yeah I said that! :laughing like a schizoid!LOL: Actually I did not say that but a real schizoid did. And the wound deepens.........

Eventually a gourd full of ashes would be invented (nuclear bomb?), which, if dropped from the sky, would boil the oceans and burn the land causing nothing to grow for many years. This would be the sign for a certain Hopi to bring out the teachings in order to warn the world that the third and final event would happen soon and could bring an end to all life unless people correct themselves and their leaders in time.

The final stage, called The Great Day of Purification, has been described as a Mystery Egg in which the forces of the Swastika and the Sun plus a third force symbolized by the color red culminate either in total rebirth or total annihilation; we don't know which. But the choice is yours; war and natural catastrophe may be involved. The degree of violence will be determined by the degree of inequity caused among the peoples of the world and in the balance of nature. In this crisis rich and poor will be forced to struggle as equals in order to survive.
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